About Us

NA Daytona Natural Accountability

 Our Mission

 The mission of www.NADaytona.org is to expose the grave danger that Narcotics Anonymous and Alcoholics Anonymous membership and meetings pose to children, teenagers, women and other vulnerable members of society subject to attendance at unsupervised, unsecured NA and AA meetings across the country. We would have it known that Narcotics Anonymous and Alcoholics Anonymous membership and meetings increase the likelihood of criminal victimization for women, minors, vulnerable adults and their families. We are committed to promoting safety for these potential victims by increasing awareness of all issues related to lack of safety for NA and AA meeting attendees.


This mission is being accomplished through the following objectives:


Keeping a Spotlight on the Problem to continually expose the extent of crime and violence against minors, women and vulnerable adults; detailing the magnitude and characteristics of  NA and AA related victimization and perpetration; and assess trends in levels of crime and violence against minors, women and vulnerable adults over time.

Making Responsible Parties Accountable by identifying organizations, companies, governmental authorities, political entities and agencies that facilitate, ignore or help to combat the reasons NA and AA related crimes against minors, women and vulnerable adults occur while enhancing ongoing efforts to identify risk and protective factors associated with reducing NA and AA related crime and violence against minors, women and vulnerable adults.

Highlighting Effective Prevention and Intervention Programs to determine the effectiveness of interventions aimed at decreasing the incidence of NA and AA related crime and violence against minors, women and vulnerable adults.

Communicating with Public and Private Entities to develop the infrastructure for compiling and disseminating information regarding violent and criminal activities that involve NA and AA memberships across the country.

Partnering to promote and facilitate collaboration, cooperation and information sharing across a wide variety of on and off-line resources dedicated to promoting the safety of all minors, women and vulnerable adults.

We will educate, empower and promote the safety of women, children, vulnerable adults and their families. Lives will be saved.


“All truths are easy to understand

once they are discovered;

the point is to discover them.”
— Galileo Galilei


AA & NA exposure is often far more harmful than helpful to the many victims of the crime running rampant through these meetings. The truth about the lack of safety at these meetings is widely unknown to most Americans and people across the globe. This web site has joined an ever-expanding network of resources on and off-line, all of whom are dedicated to educating, empowering and rescuing people from the perils of AA, NA and all programs associated with the ineffective billion-dollar 12 step-based recovery racket.


Not only does the A.A. 12-Step “treatment” not work, but it kills as many people as it appears to save. That is a very strong damnation, but the numbers back it up. There are always lots of A.A. defenders who will swear that A.A. saved their lives, and lots of A.A. boosters who claim that A.A. is keeping millions of alcoholics sober, but all objective, fair tests of A.A. that have ever been done show no better success rate than no treatment at all.” From: www.Orange-Papers.org (Orange, 2013)

It would not be necessarily a crime if these programs merely failed to help the majority of the people who turn to them; though even that failure is potentially deadly. The most egregious offense lies in the fact that so many people are subject to victimization and crime by virtue of attending these meetings and associating with the people who frequent them.





The truth hurts. Without the truth, however, we cannot adequately protect ourselves and those we love. The factual content of this site exposes information that is potentially disturbing to individuals currently attending Narcotics Anonymous or Alcoholics Anonymous meetings. Yes, it is the hidden and perhaps unpopular TRUTH, but it is the TRUTH nonetheless. Some are disturbed to find it. Some others are disturbed because they want to hide it…or hide from it. Better the truth disturb someone now than kill someone later. Often times it is too late for many people who fall into NA and AA meetings to be saved. Some never escape NA or AA with their personal sense of freedom, dignity, sanity, health or their lives.


“A raindrop coming in contact with fire loses its existence

while that falling on a shell becomes a ‘pearl’. Therefore,

people desirous of knowledge should avoid the

company of ignorant people who believe in

the motto- ignorance is bliss .”

–Sam Veda


We anticipate resistance and resentment from zealous 12 step disciples. Faithful servants of Narcotics Anonymous and Alcoholics Anonymous may experience feelings of violent opposition, illogical resistance and extreme mental distress over the vital information exposed on www.NADaytona.org. We offer no apologies; only the suggestion that those people aggressively opposed to critical information being shared about 12 step meetings, avoid the contents of this site altogether. If ignorance is “bliss” such people are welcome to remain non-thinking, blissful ignorami; but they are strongly advised to proceed with caution as they continue to attend dangerous NA and AA meetings. NA and AA will not protect or defend its members. The warning has thus been issued.



Unsafe…Unconstitutional & Unacceptable


We are dedicated to stopping the unsafe and unconstitutional practice of courts, probation officers, therapists, doctors, schools, families and clergymen across the nation sending minors and other vulnerable people to AA and NA meetings where anyone off the streets or fresh from prison cells can attend without any background checks or safety measures of any kind imposed.( It is safer to attend meetings in actual prisons!) All other organizations have laws and regulations in place to protect minors. Schools, clubs and churches pay for liability insurance to cover potentially harmful interactions with minors. NA and AA members interact with our children and minors on a regular basis. Many NA and AA members are known sex offenders. Why are NA and AA organizations held exempt from lawful regulations that would protect the well-being and safety of minors?


“I apprehend no danger to our country from a foreign foe…

Our destruction, should it come at all, will be from another

quarter. From the inattention of the people to the concerns

of their government, from their carelessness and negligence,

I must confess that I do apprehend some danger.”
— Daniel Webster


We consistently bring national attention to the public safety issue of court mandated violent felons with co-existing mental disorders attending AA and NA meetings held at public parks, playgrounds, and even churches where children, women and other potential victims of individuals with criminal histories are present. This is especially threatening to innocent children whose safety should always be protected to the best level that we can provide. Sex offenders are meeting in or near the places where our children attend school, worship and play. Is this the best we can provide?


Level 3 sexual offenders are sent to NA and AA on a regular basis through our National Departments of Corrections and our County Court Judges across the nation. The average citizen is clueless to this harsh reality. Law-abiding citizens seeking help from AA and NA unwittingly walk into these meetings without knowing that doing so actually puts them in physical harm’s way, in danger of being robbed, exploited or in worst case scenarios, killed. The average citizen is wholly unaware of the fact that some AA and NA meeting attendees have indeed been raped and murdered by NA and AA members.


“Some neighbors around Vreeland Avenue in the east part of town took their complaints against Alcoholics and Narcotics Anonymous meetings at Holy Trinity Lutheran Church to the Nutley Board of Education on Monday. They claimed the meetings attract dangerous people.” From: Article entitled, Neighbors take AA concerns to Nutley BOE (Grant , 2011)



What They Don’t Want You to Know…Until It’s Too Late


In fact, there is no criminal, regardless of criminal background that is excluded from attending NA and AA meetings. People in the United States of America have a right to know that AA and NA meetings are being mandated for individuals who have multiple arrests and convictions for murder, rape, armed robbery, grand theft, child abuse, domestic violence, prostitution, arson, etc. Shockingly, some of the individuals sitting next to people in AA and NA meetings are hardened criminals who have been arrested over 50 times!


Ours is a voice that may be criticized; but will not be stifled. We exposed truths which may be reviled by the guilty, but received gratefully by the innocent. The unjust may fight; but justice shall win. Only those who seek the truth are encouraged to read on.


If you or someone you care about currently attends NA or AA meetings you will be potentially subject to a list of crimes including but not limited to:


  • Adult Bullying
  • Battery
  • Blackmail
  • Coercion
  • Criminals (not just DUI’s but violent, dangerous, repeat offenders!)
  • Dependence
  • Dogmatic Psychological & Spiritual Conditioning
  • Emotional Abuse
  • Financial Exploitation
  • Group-think& Mind Control
  • Harmful Felons Mandated to Meetings
  • Interference With or Severing Of Family Ties
  • Isolation
  • Murder
  • Religious Indoctrination
  • Sexual Harassment & Abuse
  • Stalking
  • Suicide
  • Threats of All Types
  • Rape
  • Unqualified Medical Advice
  • Verbal Abuse
  • Violence
  • & MORE



Groomed for Abuse?


NA and AA groom newcomers to become utterly dependent upon meetings, sponsors and the fellowship. Per the conditioning of the program, you or your loved ones will be convinced that your life (a.k.a. “sobriety”) relies on your speaking primarily to AA or NA sponsors and members about your concerns, thoughts, secrets, problems or fears. As such, it will become less and less likely that anyone outside of NA or AA will be aware of what is really going on with you. You will be on your own—except for your relationship with your sponsor, connections to “the fellowship” and the meetings. This is a dangerous state of dependence, imposed isolation and psychological abuse. It serves no other purpose than to perpetuate the 12 step agenda and make members helplessly dependent; even addicted to the meetings. In fact, the process of isolation that NA and AA uses against their members, mirrors what abusers do to isolate and cut their victims off from outside sources of help. Utter dependence on any person, substance or system is never in your best interest.


“It’s just a more uncertain world out there, …

There is more of a possibility of losing something,

a loved one or a child. Maybe too there’s an

increasing sense of powerlessness, that we

don’t have as much control over the world

as we used to five or 10 years ago.”
–Piers Handling




NA and AA preach that one must “live life on life’s terms.” What they really offer, however, is quasi-life based upon NA and AA terms, dogma and commandments that they falsely refer to as “suggestions.” (Do not be fooled; there are definite consequences in store for those who do not obey.) Many old time NA and AA members gleefully confess to being completely incapable of dealing with day to life, emotional challenges, interpersonal relationships or any crisis without conferring with a sponsor and/or going to daily or semi-daily meetings. They are in perpetual recovery-mode on a day to day basis. They cannot function without their meetings. They stay sick until the day they die.


“Most important of all, the 12-steps deprive people — societies — of the belief in their own ability to manage substance use. And this loss of personal efficacy is not likely to be a good thing in the coming century.” Dr. Stanton Peele from Huffington Post article entitled, AA is Ruining the World. (Peele, 2011)

NA and AA meetings are so dangerous that someone should hand out warning notices at the doors, but no one attending the meetings seems to care about the danger because they desperately need their meetings; or so they have been convinced. Many long time 12 step ‘meeting-makers’ as they are proudly called, cannot manage their own lives without making at least 4 to 7 meetings per week. Some attend multiple meetings per day. Many have traded one “fix” for another. (They will say that at least meetings are “harmless” and that no one ever died from going to too many meetings. This is a lie. ) The dependence on meetings and managers (sponsors) is what NA and AA call “living life on life’s terms”. It is a pathetic façade for any real adult life, but once they convince you that your only alternative is death, it becomes easier to swallow. What they fail to tell you is that you may just die anyway as a result of being a good little meeting maker! NA and AA often catch people at their weakest and most vulnerable times of life. They take full advantage of this.


Before analyzing the level of behavioral control it is important to look at the people who enter AA in the first place. These are usually people who have experienced a tremendous amount of suffering as the result of alcohol dependency. They are likely to have had legal problems, relationship problems, health problems, lack of mental stability, financial problems, etc. They may have come to AA from jail, the hospital, or a treatment program. They may have done it as a result of pressure from friends and family, or work; some are mandated by court order to attend AA. Chemical dependency does cause a great deal of misery in peoples’ lives. Some become utterly desperate and go to AA after being told that it is the only way they can be helped.” From MoreRevealed.com  (Sexton, 2002)


      “Women are the only exploited group in history

to have been idealized into powerlessness.”

 –Erica Jong


Must You Accept Powerlessness Over Criminals?


Acceptance of POWERLESSNESS is at the cornerstone of NA and AA indoctrination and conditioning. They discourage independent thought. As a result, disempowered, unthinking people are more at risk for crime and being taken advantage in a myriad of ways. That is a logical, rational truth that NA and AA dogma may attempt to discredit, but that attempt should raise a florescent red flag for you by now. Becoming adult invalids is potentially dangerous to newcomers and old timers alike; but the old timers are likely so dependent on NA and AA after decades of conditioning that there is often little that can be done to awaken or save them. NA and AA have drilled into faithful followers that they are powerless over alcohol/drugs, people, places and situations; and so they are…to the great delight of the salivating criminals that routinely attend NA and AA meetings ready to pounce on powerless prey.


The very foundation of the AA program rests on the idea that one admits that he or she is powerless over alcohol. The danger in this admission is that one is admitting defeat to a problem. More than just admitting defeat, when one admits they are powerless over a problem they are conceding to the idea that they are helpless. But the real problem is that once a person embarks down this line of thinking they very quickly begin falling into the AA trap. What they don’t realize is that AA is not just preaching that a person has to admit that they are powerless over alcohol; they have to concede that they are powerless in every aspect of their life…AA creates a very convincing argument to those suffering from addiction. When one is having difficulty kicking a habit it is easy to buy into the idea that one is powerless. But in truth, just because one is having a hard time quitting drinking, does not make them powerless over alcohol. Drinking is a behavior and it is controllable. But if a person decides to explore the AA method, he or she will be getting a lot more than they expected.” From: Orange-Papers.org (Van Noir, 2012)

These programs are dangerous in many ways due to stripping people of personal power, self-reliance and the ability to rationalize. Due to deeply embedded beliefs of POWERLESSNESS and a belief that the only option is “the program or death,” many long time members choose eventual suicide over leaving these programs. They BELIEVE they can’t make it without NA or AA; therefore they cannot. It is their belief and dependency on NA and AA that kills them. Unfortunately, this warning will never reach some. (You at least have a chance now.) See: http://nadaytona.org/alcoholics-anonymous-admits-aa-members-role-in-suicides/


In the position of abject POWERLESSNESS that NA and AA encourages you to assume, you or someone you love will be increasingly exposed to victimization and any manner of criminal acts. NA and AA hit unsuspecting meeting goers with what is in essence a “double-whammy”. Firstly, just participation in NA and AA meetings puts you in physical proximity of potential perpetrators. Secondly, the program itself forces you to give up your personal power making you more vulnerable to victimization. Anyone who dares deny the danger of putting one’s self in such a precarious position is an imbecile or a liar.


“For more than a decade Christopher has been in and out of rehab, hospitals, and jail. He’s not a violent criminal and he’s quite bright. But he has a serious problem. He can’t stop drinking. The court system has done what it can: punishing him, cajoling him, threatening him, offering him help. Nothing has worked, at least not for long. Unfortunately, part of their legal prescription has been dangerous: court ordered attendance in Alcoholics Anonymous. Lurking in that program was the man who preyed on Christopher’s addiction. A man who came to him as an angel but behaves like a devil. Glenn (Christopher’s sponsor) is in his mid-to-late 50s, single and semi-retired, he has a lot of time on his hands. He spends much of it in the Traverse City recovery community, meeting young people. That’s where he met Christopher and other young men like him. AA meetings are like networking sessions to Glenn, it’s where he scouts for new targets. He hands out business cards to newcomers, the cards emblazoned with the AA logo and Glenn’s cell number. He innocently offers his services as a sponsor, but he has other things in mind.” From – Predators lurk in Alcoholics Anonymous – DanHolmes.com (Holmes, 2012)



“I find that people care deeply but

they don’t know what to do about it.

I think one of the great obstacles has

been this feeling of powerlessness.”
–Mike McCabe


Do It Or…DIE!


Staunch 12 step program-believers will refuse to heed any warnings, edification or empowerment offered here or elsewhere. Thinking is considered a “stinking” thing to do. Faithful NA and AA members do not study, contemplate or review any new information, research or non-program approved reading material. It is explicitly or implicitly forbidden. What’s more is that they are afraid to. (Even those that troll sites such as www.NADaytona.org merely skim the material with closed, thoughtless minds and go on the defensive.) NA and AA drones mindlessly attack and debate the TRUTH with regurgitated program dogma, slogans and/or non sequiturs. None of them possess any original thoughts, contributions, arguments or ideas. Why? They are terrified of discovering any valid truths contrary to what NA and AA has dictated to them. They do not even know that they are terrified; that would take ‘thinking’ and remember, ‘thinking’ is not allowed. Obedient NA and AA members would literally rather die than heed these warnings…and they do not even know it!


If you were to tell typical NA and AA sponsors that you are reading the information on this site, they would use a range of tactics that go from asking you how this information ‘serves your sobriety’ to actually forbidding you to read any further non-program approved information. Keeping you ignorant and uninformed solidifies their sense of dubious stability and power over you. If you told them of your intention to become informed; they would threaten, warn, advise, manipulate, fire, shun or try to control you by whatever means necessary in order to keep you from destroying their opaque delusional state of mind.


Truth-seeking on your part would upset or even anger NA and AA sponsors and old timers. Intense emotions for an NA or AA devotee are like water thrown on the wicked witch in the Land of Oz. They can’t take it!  A threat to the program’s beliefs is perceived as a threat to their sobriety. A threat to their sobriety is perceived as a threat to their lives and such threats will not be tolerated. NA and AA followers will see you destroyed before they allow you to threaten their belief system. (Deep down they know it cannot withstand scrutiny; thus the intense FEAR!) They will defend NA and AA while destroying you ostensibly for your own good. If you cannot or will not try to “work a good program” your life is utterly expendable. Your death is actually of more value to them if you fail to comply because they can then use your demise as an eternal example of what becomes of those who fail to obey. Their ultimate message to you and all would-be takers is: Get with the program or DIE!


“If knowledge can create problems,

 it is not through ignorance

that we can solve them.”
–Isaac Asimov


Fear is a master motivator…especially in NA and AA. Serving the program is considered salvation to NA and AA long time followers. It’s what they have been taught. Many NA and AA old timers know that violent felons are recruited and mandated to their meetings—quite a few of them do the recruitment. NA and AA meetings are dumping grounds for violent criminals. Old timers do not care. (They don’t care especially since some of them are perpetrators themselves!) The inherent danger does not fully register in their brains because they are on a rigorously indoctrinated mission. NA and AA have very cleverly convinced these people that recruitment within institutions, jails and prisons is a vital component of their required life-long service work. It is a choice between working and meeting with criminals or dying. The deadly ultimatum offered by NA and AA makes many of their suggestions, requirements, abuses and edicts acceptable. Again, it is a matter of do or DIE. Obedient members choose to take their chances with the criminals over facing life without NA or AA. It’s simple. Good NA and AA members gratefully perform service work entailing recruitment and meeting with oft times violent criminals in order to maintain their sobriety and stave off relapse into institutions, jails, hospitals and death.


“Fear’s a bad way to be motivated,

but a realistic sense of risk

 is a rational approach.”
–Laurie Garrett


If You Need More Reasons…

If after reading what we have presented to you thus far you find yourself still hesitant or afraid to confront NA or AA in your life, please review a piece called, “Simple Reasons to Leave Alcoholics Anonymous” on an very empowering site, dedicated to helping people who have left or are thinking about leaving AA or NA, called LeavingAA.com. This piece is well worth the read as it delves into the following reasons to leave these programs:

  • Sexual Harassment
  • Rape
  • Murder
  • Indentured servitude
  • Child molestation
  • Theft
  • Ancient religious literature
  • Suicide
  • Insanity


(Massive, 2012)


It is drilled into NA and AA members that they must do the steps and perform service work in order to give back what was so freely given to them…or DIE! (It is always do or DIE in NA and AA!) Actually, this manipulation is vital to continuing the stream of new blood flowing into meetings, fresh meat warming seats around the tables…a new foggy heads filling the beds at 12 step-based treatment facilities all across the country. Without the influx of constantly recruited and mandated criminals into NA and AA meetings and treatment programs, membership and book sales would slowly and steadily dry up. Memberships, treatment patients and book sales are huge reasons for why Narcotics Anonymous and Alcoholics Anonymous exhibit no concern for NA and AA members being put at risk for crime at meetings. Safety and crime are mere trifles from NA and AA World Services’ perspectives. The choice for these multi-million dollar enterprises is profit or die. Do the math.


NA and AA must have treatment programs that purchase copies of their literature in bulk and they must have members to fill spots and slots. Twelve-step treatment is a racket; it is pure economics. As far as NA and AA are concerned the survival of its members is secondary to the survival of the fellowship (a.k.a. enterprise). In the Twelve Traditions of AA it states: Each member of Alcoholics Anonymous is but a small part of a great whole. A.A. must continue to live or most of us will surely die. Hence our common welfare comes first. But individual welfare follows close afterward.”  How close? They voted to take no action to protect the welfare of individuals in the program and are currently being sued for just this reason. See: http://nadaytona.org/2013/01/28/karla-brada-strangled-to-death-by-aa-member-eric-allen-earle-says-lawsuit-filed-against-alcoholics-anonymous/#more-3907



“It’s interesting that the staunchest defenders of

man’s free-will are the soonest to condemn

the dangers of free-thinking.”



Be Empowered; Not Victimized


NA and AA meetings are unregulated, unsupervised and for the most part, very secretive. In order to attend these meetings one must state that he or she is either an alcoholic or an addict or that they have a desire to stop using. (Though increasingly, activists are going undercover to these meetings.) The meetings are usually closed off from any individual or entity overtly interested in gathering information or helping vulnerable members. They hide under the word, “Anonymity” which in fact, unbeknownst to many, has no legal precedent whatsoever. It is pure machination on the parts of NA and AA.


The government, law enforcement, social services, educators, counselors and parents have been misled to believe that NA and AA have a legitimate excuse for operating as they do. While they vehemently claim to be “spiritual-not-religious,” these organizations have come to undeservedly be treated as sacraments in this society. The perception of our entire popular culture has been hijacked as it were; movies, television, print media, etc., still hold 12 step programs as the miracle-pill for everyone seeking help for alcohol or substance use and/or over use issues. It has almost become ‘en-vogue’ to go to NA or AA if you think you have a problem with drugs or alcohol.


This grand deception and en masse naivety puts vulnerable American citizens at considerable risk for harm; and great harm does occur. Most Americans only discover how dangerous this situation is after abuse, violence, theft or tragedy directly touches their lives or the lives of someone they love. Children, teens, women and vulnerable adults are coming to great harm due to our popular belief in false, unproven systems that mix the vulnerable with the villains. Churches are slowly (too slowly) coming to realize how dangerous these meetings are and have begun to force them to vacate their premises. See: http://nadaytona.org/category/dangerous-aana-meetings-in-churches/



“Men are so simple and so much

inclined to obey immediate needs

that a deceiver will never lack

victims for his deceptions”
–Niccolo Machiavelli



But It’s Free!


Many try to defend NA and AA by stating that these programs are free. They are not! Death, the greatest of all costs has been paid by victims of NA and AA. It may be especially frightening to parents of children, teens, women and other vulnerable adults presently attending these meetings to know that AA actively recruits young members from schools and treatment programs and at the same time also recruits criminals from prisons. Could anyone pay any parent to knowingly put his or her child in danger?


Some deceitful and manipulative members of these organizations will defend them to their graves by saying that it is just as easy or likely to meet a criminal in an AA or NA meeting as it is at the grocery store, the gym, etc. That is a lie. Grocery stores, gyms, malls, bars, etc. do not actively recruit patrons from prison nor do they have the courts sending people to grocery stores, gyms, malls, bars, etc. in lieu of lighter sentencing for violent crimes. See: http://nadaytona.org/tag/santa-clarita-aa-meetings-are-not-safe/



When questioned about the dire issue of sexual harassment within AA meetings, Alcoholics Anonymous World Headquarters stated that it has no accountability for sexual harassment in its meetings. AA conveniently calls sexual harassment by AA members enacted upon other AA members while attending AA meetings an “outside issue”. Is this not akin to the Roman Catholic Church stating that sexual misconduct during church services enacted upon church members is an outside issue? Take for instance, if Penn State, attempted to claim that sexual crimes against children enacted by their coach are just an “outside issue”? We refused to allow either of these powerful organizations to get away with that. Why would AA and NA be allowed to get away with it?


“It may be that your whole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others”




We contend that if the American people know what is going on, they will not stand for it at all. We understand that some modicum of discomfort, upset or trauma may be experienced by some NA and AA devotees due to the disclosure of this provocative information; nevertheless, to allow the danger of NA and AA meetings to go undisclosed, would be harmful, dangerous and irresponsible. The danger is real and therefore so must be the WARNING.


The General Public Must Be Advised:


  • Children who go to AA and NA meetings (often with mothers having limited access to child care) are in danger of being molested or harmed by other crimes and violence at these meetings (often by male members who date female members for the sole purpose of gaining access to her children). The often explicit, violent and emotionally charged language at these meetings is patently abusive to children to be present for. See: http://nadaytona.org/2012/03/29/narcotics-anonymous-member-arrested-for-molesting-child-during-na-meeting/


  • Teens sent to these meetings often by law enforcement, judges, counselors, parents and teachers are being put at risk for sexual assault, criminal activity, physical and emotional abuse and increasingly, suicide attempts and completed suicides. Teens are minors for whom it is highly inappropriate to be subject to the oft times criminal element present at these meetings. See: http://nadaytona.org/2012/07/28/minor-sexually-assaulted-at-aa-meeting-by-aa-member/


  • Women unwittingly attending AA and NA meetings seeking support for drug and or alcohol use and/or over-use are instead being exposed to sexual assault, sexual harassment, manipulation, emotional and mental abuse, unqualified medical advice that has in some cases lead to death. Women continue to become victims of violence, rape and murder as a direct result of attending these meetings. See: http://nadaytona.org/category/rape-by-aa-na-members/


Parents of teens sent to AA and/or NA are told that AA and NA are simply microcosms of society. They are told that these meetings are just as safe as anywhere else their teen might go. How can that be? The meetings are often full of felons! Many AA and NA groups are comprised of groups consisting of over 50% mandated criminals. Parents might be wiser to send their teenaged children for walks up and down a darkened alley as opposed to sending them to sit like fresh meat in AA and NA meetings.


AA and NA have an entirely underserved and erroneous public image of being safe. They are not safe! Children, teens, women and men continue to be victims of sexual harassment, abuse and rape at the hands of predatory AA and NA members. They jokingly call it “13th stepping,” but it is no laughing matter. Lives are ruined by this common step. Many parents unwittingly step into AA and NA meetings with their minor children. Minor teenagers are often mandated by the courts or encouraged by family to attend AA and NA meetings. If families really knew what lies in wait at these meetings, they would never allow a family member of any age anywhere near the dangerous doors of AA or NA meetings.


Families deserve to know that there are absolutely no safeguards in place currently to protect minors in Alcoholics Anonymous or Narcotics Anonymous. There are no background checks required for any AA or NA members who gravitate to meetings attended by vulnerable minors and women. In fact, unless AA members are working within institutions like jails, mental hospitals or juvenile facilities-no background checks are ever required. It’s basically a free for all.


AA and NA meetings are ripe for victimization of unknowing attendees. For instance, the only requirement that AA states is that “one must have a desire to stop drinking.” Still, even AA must admit that the egregious practice of mandating felons to their meetings ignores that requirement. Felons, by virtue of having been forced to attend meetings, do not all (or most even) actually desire or even intend to stop drinking and/or drugging. They go to get their paperwork signed; and many, once they see how easily accessible the meetings make their potential victims, go for prey.



They Hold Members Accountable… Now It Is Their Turn


If someone wants to start a substance abuse treatment center with classes, they have to obtain zoning approval, deal with bureaucracy and jump through a bunch of hoops. If they want to have minors attend their classes there are even more hoops to jump through, including background checks. If you call yourself a “12 step self help group,” however, any and all requirements fly out of the window. Why is this loophole allowed? Why are Alateen attendees required to have background checks and typical formalities to protect minors, yet no other 12 step program has any requirements in place? Is Alcoholics Anonymous being given some sort of special dispensation due to its monolithic influence in this country? All other agencies in this country that serve the public in the way that NA and AA do are required by law to adhere to guidelines and a regulatory process. Even though AA and NA receive clients worth billions in revenue to 12 step based programs, AA and NA are allowed to move forward with impunity, no regulations and are not held in any way accountable for the injuries, rapes and deaths that they refuse to acknowledge or take any responsibility for. See: http://nadaytona.org/alcoholics-anonymous-votes-no-to-protect-members-from-predators/#sthash.GJ9QDJSU.dpuf



Lie #1 – Narcotics Anonymous and Alcoholics Anonymous’ 12 Step Approach is the Only Way


Alternatives to AA and NA exist for those that do not agree with the 12 step religious component, the notion that one is utterly powerless over addiction…and that one must make meetings or…die. Many in AA and NA know this, but they have a vested interest in keeping this information from the public at large. Smart Recovery, Women for Sobriety, and SOS and other science based treatment options are available. All US courts, in accordance with the Constitution of the United States of America, must offer secular (non-religious) options to those mandated to alcohol and/or substance abuse treatment. Our courts must stop the current practice of violating the constitutional rights of minors and adults. Substance abusers are still American citizens and they have better recovery rates when they are given a choice of treatment options and support groups.


In America freedom of choice is a right that AA and NA must not be allowed to take away. It is time to be rigorously honest about Alcoholics Anonymous and Narcotics Anonymous. If you or someone you know is dealing with AA, NA or an alcohol or drug problem, please make a list of the following resources. There are many more good resources out there as well. Do your due diligence. You are really worth it.


Here are just a few of the many resources now available:
HAMS (Harm Reduction, Abstinence and Moderation Support)


My Way Out (MWO)

Moderation Management (MM)

SMART Recovery (Self Management And Recovery Training)

Women For Sobriety (WFS)

SOS (Save Our Selves)


Rational Recovery (RR)




We welcome you to please take the time to read more information from some of the many resources that we have referred to:


Grant , M. (2011, August 30). Neighbors take aa concerns to nutley boe. Retrieved from http://www.northjersey.com/news/128671393_Neighbors_take_AA_concerns_to_Nutley_BOE.html

Holmes, D. (2012, April 10). Predators lurk in alcoholics anonymous. Retrieved from http://www.danholmes.com/essays/predators-lurk-in-alcoholics-anonymous/


Massive. (2012, November 11). Simple reasons to leave alcoholics anonymous. Retrieved from http://leavingaa.com/simple-reasons-to-leave-alcoholics-anonymous/


Orange, A. (2013). What’s not good about a.a.. Retrieved from http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-not_good.html


Peele, S. (2011, October 03). AA is ruining the world . Retrieved from http://www.huffingtonpost.com/stanton-peele/problems-with-aa_b_989832.html


Sexton, D. (2002, June). Mind control tactics. Retrieved from http://www.morerevealed.com/archives/mind-control-tactics-of-alcoholics-anonymous-by-devin-sexson.html


Van Noir, V. (2012, August 4). The dangers of powerlessness. Retrieved from http://www.orange-papers.org/forum/node/2106


61 thoughts on “ABOUT US

  1. I’m 20 years sober in AA. I will not debate you, there is nothing to debate. No one is forced to attend any 12 step meetings. If a judge tells you that you must attend, tell him I refuse on the grounds that I find them unsafe. I’m sure you will be much safer in jail. I will say, I do know one girl who was murdered in a sober living home by another girl, that was 12 years or so ago. Has nothing to do with AA. The children thing I cant speak on because the only meetings where children turn up in southern ca. are open ones where they are allowed with their parent in the meeting or ones with childcare. Suicide ? Well I guess I could have continued the suicide on the installment program by drinking and drugging. The fact that some people cant handle life once they remove their anesthesia, is no reflection on AA ? You have to understand, you are dealing with people who are self medicating with drugs and alcohol, once they stop they MUST deal with the under lying issues that caused them to want to self medicate. The substance is irrelevant. We have all seen hoarders, those TV shows where people eat laundry sheets ? I mean the laundry sheet isn’t the problem, and AA is just a vehicle to recover from committing suicide on the installment program. You can refuse to go to meetings, there are only volunteers at 12 step meetings. I personally know people who said , no way, give me the jail time. I am trying to figure your angle, you are either pushing people to a different recovery route, or you are extremely naïve. Non the less, your crusade may save 1 life, I give you that, but it may cost you 100. Now where is YOU’RE accountability? Are you willing to sign a contract with someone insuring their well being if they don’t try a 12 step program ? Better put you’re money where you’re mouth is….

    • “If a judge tells you that you must attend, tell him I refuse on the grounds that I find them unsafe. I’m sure you will be much safer in jail.”

      So, go to jail and THEN get mandated to 12step meetings after you are released on probation! What you are saying is that nobody “must” go to meetings because they can always disobey their probation and end up in jail again.

      Now, an activist type may be willing to suffer repeated sentences for refusal to attend you cult’s meetings and work “the Program”, but most people cannot commit themselves to being Leninist-style professional activists.

      “The fact that some people cant handle life once they remove their anesthesia, is no reflection on AA ? ”

      It shows your program sucks and “the Promises” are lies. Admittedly though, that is one criticism that cannot be applied also to NA, which only makes the promise of “freedom from active addiction”. Of course, anyone who is not actively using already has that freedom, so why waste time on the Steps?

      “Non [sic] the less, your crusade may save 1 life, I give you that, but it may cost you 100.”

      That looks like a veiled threat if I have ever seen one.

      “Now where is YOU’RE [sic] accountability? Are you willing to sign a contract with someone insuring their well being if they don’t try a 12 step program ?”

      No, of course we are not. I would like you to explain why we should be.

      “Better put you’re [sic] money where you’re mouth is….”
      Second veiled threat.

    • Wait….. No one forces you? What logic is this? 12 step logic.

      If I stick a gun to your face and give you the choice to shoot your kid instead, nothing wrong, no one forcing you to do anything.

      Look up Coercion sometime in a dictionary.

      • The really sad thing I just realized is no one from AA/NA will get this metaphor and instead those dumb fucks will think I actually do this shit.

  2. I’m not sure why Daytona has such a violent AA-NA population, but this behavior certainly isn’t typical of all AA. In 26 years of attendance in NYC, these incidents are extremely rare, if occurring at all. I certainly don’t support the “do this or die” mantra, but as far as being a dangerous place, I don’t see it.

    • Hi James, There are years worth of news articles in the archives of this website that clearly demonstrate abuse and cover-ups within these organizations.

      Please read through some of the news articles and archives on this website with a willingness to see the truth and I’m sure you can understand that there is a need for these groups to adapt safety guidelines.

      If they truly care about their members why wouldn’t they?

      Many people have been the victim of harassment and threats from members of these groups, who meet in a public park, only to have group members cover it up and lie to police about it. We later found out, through the news articles collected in the archives, that abuse and cover-ups happen a lot within these organizations.

      I’m sure a lot of people are unaware but many are just in denial.

      These groups have a high concentration of court mandates who have committed all kinds of crimes, some of them over and over again. You could be sitting right next to one that offers you a ride home.
      AA and NA have had many members complain of abuse and have asked headquarters for safety guidelines.

      These organizations still refuse to admit the problem.

      They refuse to adapt even the most basic safety guidelines. Many vulnerable people attend unsupervised groups like this with the false premise that they are in a safe place. The news articles say otherwise!

  3. I am a student and I am studying Human Services and I am required to attend an open session of a AA and NA meeting. I was wondering if someone could call me and give me permission to sit in on these meeting. Thank You!

    • You dont need permission. You can attend any “open” meeting of AA or NA. Just look up your local chapter on the internet.

  4. The Heresy of the Twelve Steps
    by A. Orange

    “Many will say to me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy by Thy name, and by Thy name cast out devils, and by Thy name do many mighty works?’
    And then will I profess unto them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me that work iniquity.'”
    Matthew 7:22-23

    Christian churches would call the Twelve Steps heretical, if they would bother to read them carefully. Theologically, there are all kinds of things wrong with them.


    Possibly the greatest heresy in the A.A. dogma is this bit of idolatry: In the Alcoholics Anonymous program, you can use anything for your “God” or “Higher Power”. A.A. has lots of stories of people using a bedpan, a teacup, a doorknob, a stone, a teddy bear, a mountain, a motorcycle, or “Good Orderly Direction” for their “Higher Power”. You can pray to any Golden Calf, stone idol, or Higher-Powered item of Household Hardware that you like. You can even use your local A.A. group itself as your ‘God’ if you wish. One of the more ridiculous word redefinitions that A.A. offers us is, you can make the word “G.O.D.” mean “Group Of Drunks”.

    A.A. founder Bill Wilson wrote:

    “I must quickly assure you that A.A.’s tread innumerable paths in their quest for faith. … You can, if you wish, make A.A. itself your ‘higher power.’ Here’s a very large group who have solved their alcohol problem. In this respect they are certainly a power greater than you, who have not even come close to a solution. Surely you can have faith in them. Even this minimum of faith will be enough.”
    Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions, William G. Wilson, page 27.
    Most Christians are more accustomed to the idea of The Father, The Son, and The Holy Ghost. Not very many of them will enjoy praying to a group of drunkards, and Seeking and Doing the Will of Drunkards. And I can’t imagine Moslems, Buddhists, Hindus, Jews, or Native Americans being too happy with such a “Higher Power”, either.

    And “having faith” in a Group Of Drunkards is really stupid. What am I supposed to believe? That they won’t relapse and drink some more?

    In addition, the Twelve Steps talk about “God as we understood Him”. Members are allegedly free to define God however they imagine or understand “Him” to be. Bill Wilson told A.A. recruiters to

    Stress the spiritual feature freely. If the man be agnostic or atheist, make it emphatic that he does not have to agree with your conception of God. He can choose any conception he likes, provided it makes sense to him. The main thing is that he be willing to believe in a Power greater than himself and that he live by spiritual principles.
    The Big Book, William G. Wilson, Chapter 7, Working With Others, page 93.
    What is that deceptive double-talk?

    Atheists, who do not believe in the existence of a God, don’t have to agree with the recruiter’s conception of God, but they must believe in a spiritual “Higher Power”, which, by definition, atheists don’t.

    How could an atheist possibly have a “conception” of a God Who will deliver miracles on demand when by definition he does not believe in the existence of any such thing?

    And the atheists certainly won’t be willing to believe in what they don’t believe, so Bill’s “main thing” isn’t going to work for them.

    Complete article at http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-heresy.html

  5. Ray Smith thoughts on Agnostics in AA

    :From The Serenity Bible by Robert Helmfelt:

    “We may start as agnostics. We may then come to view the group or the recovery process as our Higher Power, looking to other people for strength. Gradually, we accept a vague notion of God, which grows to a more specific monotheistic God. Eventually we come to know the One True God. Unless we are growing spiritually in recovery, we are going backwards.”

    ::Answer from Ray Smith
    This is one of the best descriptions of the religious nature of the program that I’ve seen. A “Higher Power”, always capitalized in AA literature, is God with training wheels. Something to get you into the habit of praying and when your life starts getting better, you are to believe that it came from prayer and letting God into your life rather than the fact that you’ve quit drinking for awhile. Brainwashing 101. Read your 12 & 12. In Step Two atheists and agnostics are called belligerent, savage, defiant; it is said that they ‘worship’ science, that they are ‘too smart for their own good’, that all this was merely an ‘ego-feeding’ proposition. It gives a play-by-play description on how a sponsor goes about CONVERTING his charges to belief in the God of AA. And no, the God of AA, is not the Christian God I grew up with or studied in Bible school, but I’d prefer not to get into a lengthy theological debate here. I would cite a lack of Free Will, expecting miracles on demand, the idea that God cannot cure alcoholism only arrest it on a daily basis, the involvement of Bill & Dr. Bob with spiritualism, but there are Christians on the internet that argue objections from a Christian perspective better than me.

    A Higher Power, especially capitalized, especially as used by any 12step program refers to something that you pray to that answers prayers. Prayer is the act of attempting to communicate, commonly with a sequence of words, with a deity or spirit for the purpose of worshiping, requesting guidance, requesting assistance, confessing sins or to express ones thoughts and emotions.

    I certainly would not pray to an AA group (especially some of the groups I’ve been involved with).

    Many people CLAIM to have been atheists (Bill W went back and forth on this one), agnostics, or even pagans (Victor Kitchen’s I was a Pagan). The overwhelming majority of AA members are lapsed Christians. They never made a conscious decision about God, they drifted away and when they weren’t struck down by lightning, they stopped thinking about it.


    • (I hope I’m not taking up too much space on your site, but wanted to address this topic):
      Even their term ‘came to believe’ shows a cult aspect of AA/NA/etc.- that regardless of what you do believe, you will eventually see things ‘their way.’
      The ‘freedom’ to choose a higher power is nothing more than giving people the false security of believing their ‘choices’ are actually in their own hands.

      • Sunkist- very true, espechially this comment

        “The ‘freedom’ to choose a higher power is nothing more than giving people the false security of believing their ‘choices’ are actually in their own hands.”

        AA and NA are master manipulators in this way. Their ultimate goal is for you to become a believer in their God. Their distorted Christian based religion that is a heretical version based on their big book bible. They even want Christians to put AA before Christ at the end of the day.

  6. I don’t know who you people are, but, I found my way BACK TO GOD in AA and NA and have a closer walk with my Lord Jesus Christ, than I ever did before. You talk about the violence, yet I hear nothing about the amazing fact that GOD took a man named Bill Wilson and another man named Dr. Bob and through them instituted a program of hope for a band of people totally hopeless. Many have found their way to God and church through this program and families have been restored and amends made everywhere possible EXCEPT “WHEN TO DO SO WOULD INJURE THEM (THEM BEING THE OFFENDED NOT THE OFFENDER) OR OTHERS (FAMILY MEMBERS, CO WORKERS, ETC). I am one of many who is finally living a live of sanity and serenity and it all started with me admitting I had a problem and I wanted to find a solution. Over the years, if you actually knew anything about these programs, you would actually know that they each are accountable to a central office where everything is decided as to what is acceptable. You sound like a cult of one with no followers, so you have to bash what God created through others to save his children. Remember, Jesus hung out with the prostitutes, not the pharisees! I hate to speak ill of anyone; however, if it looks like a pharisee and it acts like a pharisee and it talks like a pharisee, it is MOST DEFINITELY A PHARISEE!!! Before you attack others, especially those you know nothing about (or only a little), stand in front of the mirror and take those rose colored glasses off and start throwing rocks at your own glass house! Jesus said, “If there is one among you who has NOT sinned, let him cast the first stone,” and everyone scattered. He forgave the woman and sent her on her way. She was faithful to God from that day on. So, I ask, who are you to judge? You look a lot like a Pharisee to me; but then that’s just my opinion.

  7. I’m sure there are cases of abuse (as there are in…oh, churches, police units, PUBLIC SCHOOLS), but to claim that this type of behavior takes place in AA everywhere is just crazy. Do you rant on about teacher abuse in public school, or about how students are “bullied” into believing the facts they are being taught?

  8. I would also like the Daytona Area NA members to take a step back and take a look at what happens when we violate our 10th Tradition: “Narcotics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the NA name ought never be drawn into public controversy.” Someone should have jerked Terrence T. by his wife beater the moment he stepped into the pavilion that day. Just this one action, just this one decision by a member who was totally into his disease that day has brought the wrath of an uninformed community down upon the heads of the entire NA community. Sadly, many addicts will use this stomach-churning episode as just another excuse not to open that meeting room door and seek help and will die as a result.

    Enter Tradition Four: “Each group should be autonomous except in matters affecting other groups or NA as a whole.” It is time for NA as a whole to get involved and engage in some serious fence mending before more addicts die. NAWS, get off your duffs and get involved in this before it’s too late. We need a 10th Step BIG TIME!!!

  9. casey- Third, your claim that AA and NA has “an active campaign” to persuade minors to join is just a blatant lie. The traditions say that it is about attraction rather than promotion. AA and NA do not promote the program to ANYONE let alone a special campaign to minors.

    Yes they are going after minor and youth. They have been making video’s and animated shorts to attract youth. They know many adults already know the truth how AA doesnt work. In fact , many with 20 + years are off their rocker. Doing the 12 steps over and over makes people nuts.

    After many years I am convinced most in AA are really alcoholics like Bill W . was.

  10. Your biggest issue seems to be there are no background checks in AA or NA, yet I’m very unaware that SMART Recovery and the other options that you listed do. Furthermore, many of those programs mainly have meetings online. The chances there is a predator lurking in one of those online meetings seems pretty good to me. Seems to me your problem is with AA/NA/12 Steps and not the number of people in the program who have a criminal record.

    Second, I’d be interested in knowing where you get your statistics from that 50-80% are mandated. Statistics on 12 Step members are notoriously difficult to gauge do to the anonymity of the program and the fact there are no dues or fees. Even if you know the number of people mandated based on court records, that doesn’t tell you how many people ask a whole are in the program or if the people mandated actually even go (I can tell you that most do not).

    Third, your claim that AA and NA has “an active campaign” to persuade minors to join is just a blatant lie. The traditions say that it is about attraction rather than promotion. AA and NA do not promote the program to ANYONE let alone a special campaign to minors.

    Bad things happen inside and outside AA. Bad things happen in those other programs too, but there are fewer members, so naturally it happens less often. In the same respect, the programs aren’t as well known, so when someone in those programs does do something shady, they aren’t identified in the media as a “SMART recovery member” or the like as often as an AA or NA member is.

    This site is purely for fear-mongering.

    • Casey, you are obviously uninformed. Unlike other Organizations, AA or NA refuses to implement any safety precautions to prevent sexual abuse by AA or NA members. Please review this website http://www.ncsisafe.com/ . It teaches Organizations that serve youth and vulnerable how to reduce sexual abuse in their groups. Did you know that AA actually voted to do nothing about the sexual abuse of minors and others in AA a few years ago. Even Alateen that is a 12 step Organization that helps minors deal with family family members with alcohol problems have guidelines

      AA voted to do nothing to protect minors from sexual abuse from AA members or others as this leaked internal memo shows

      Just because AA has it written that they are about attraction and not promotion has failed the smell test. It just is not true. You say it is a blatant lie that AA has an active campaign to persuade minors to join? Well I wish you were right. Sadly you are very, very wrong. AA is going into our highschools and promoting AA, and encouraging minors to join AA. NA is going to adolescent addiction conventions, to target minors. AA World Services has a new Video they are working on just for youth. AA and NA allows 3rd level sex offenders to co- mingle with children and teens at meetings along with violent felons. Also SMART Recovery does not target minors. SMART Recovery has guidelines for addressing issues that crop up in their meetings. SMART does not tolerate the behavior that AA and NA does. That is why you do not hear about them in the news.

      Also AA and NA is the choice that the majority of our courts choose to mandate people to. Even though it goes against people’s constitutional rights.

      AA has there own stats on mandared members in AA. AA and NA would be a mere shell of themselves without the court mandates. You say many do not show up. Well actually if they do not they are breaking probation or Drug Court rules. They will end up in jail if they do not, so yes Casey tons of court mandates attend these meetings.

  11. Your “opinion” on what Narcotics Anonymous is and isn’t is very scary. You should actually do some research before you fill your website (smart recovery?) with this garbage. Athiests attend and celebrate many years of recovery. NA is a non religious program based on spiritual not religious principles. Three of the most important are honesty, open mindedness and willingness. The willingness in my opinion means willing to follow the spiritual principles…. Honesty, Humility, Service to society. I don’t hear much of that on this website but I do see an ad for smart recovery.. What’s the least expensive recovery program I might find on their website? Narcotics Anonymous has no fees or dues and the don’t discriminate. They would even welcome you if you had a desire to stop using drugs and find a new way to live. If these are your firm beliefs can you be honest and say what kind of experiences YOU personally have had with Narcotics Anonymous? What is driving your efforts? Narcotics Anonymous is member driven and strives to maintain an atmosphere of safe recovery at all times, The only goal of Narcotics Anonymous is to make sure that all addicts know the simple truth that Any addict can stop using drugs. Nothing in this world is infallible and ignorance is no excuse for you to speak your “beliefs” about something.

    • It is obvious you did not read what this community site is about! As far as SMART Recovery-they are a highly respected science based program that is FREE. I guess you did not look at that webite either. So much for humility, open mindedness and willingness! What hypocrisy!Typical AA speak. Many people contribute to the site and have different experiences with 12 step programs. We all agree that AA is indeed religious, and that our government has no business mandating violent criminals to AA or NA meetings. Mixing sexual predators with minors is a reprehensible policy of AA/NA and the courts. When is AA/NA going to own up to the facts of the harm they cast on their members? I would hardly think NA strives to have an atmosphere of recovery when their members are sexually abusing minors and murdering others. Kinda hard to have a safe atmosphere when AA’s Hospital & Institutions invite hardened criminals to the same meetings as vulnerable members of society.

      This site exposes hard cold FACTS about AA and NA. No ignorance here, only a wealth of information about the darkside of AA/NA. Sounds like you have a bad case of denial, trying to silence those that know the ugly truth about 12 step programs.

      • HI JOEL A. , I am going to ask you for a little “ HONESTY and HUMILITY.”

        Did you “ACTUALLY RESEARCH” the MONTHLY ARCHIVES of this public awareness site?



        Did you “ACTUALLY RESEARCH” the “RUDE AWAKENING” section on this website? This is where local community members and others tell of their personal experiences with AA/NA groups and members.

        PLEASE, if anyone wants to know how this PRO- “SAFE ACCOUNTABLE RECOVERY”, community interest, public awareness website got its start,





  12. Ah, I am glad to see the growing movement against these 12 Step cults. And they are. I, unlike the enslaved cult members that will wail the Program on these pages and cry “It saved me,” have done my research on the history of AA. Yes, that HP IS god, and the christian one at that. Atheists receive persecution at AA/NA, and don’t go screaming at me that they do NOT: I’ve lived it. No god = You are DOOMED! The 12 steps are just another religious doctrine. Useless & punitive. There is zero therapeutic value in praying. The whole groups & their culture both frustrate and anger me. I have worked in drug harm min for well over 20 years, and so I know my stuff.
    Please – think before you go, and if you MUST encounter their crap via rehab, keep reminding yourself: “Did I want to quit drugs to join a church? Did you decide to quit to enhance your life? Where does it say – to successfully end your addiction, please leave your brain at the front door.” Your life can expand – but these 12 step fellowships want your enslavement to addiction to last an entire lifetime.

  13. I agree, children and minors do not belong in NA/AA meetings. If you feel you have no choice, then go to one that may provide childcare where children cannot hear AA members telling their war stories. You may also want to see if there are any women only meetings in your area. These precautions are only still a slight improvement, but better than nothing.

    If at all possible, ask your probation officer if you can do your meetings online with http://www.smartrecovery.org . Some will say you still need to go to some meetings face to face along with online meetings. Online meetings will give you actual anonynimity, and will protect your children from being exposed to sexual offenders, felons and long time sober 13 steppers. If your probation officer will not work with you, than contact this website at info@nadaytona.org and they will advocate for you and/or your children.

    Stand up for your rights for choice in treatment, and stand up to protect your children and minor teens from attending inherently dangerous AA meetings. Someone needs to stick up for these minors that are being subjected to this emotional and sometimes physical abuse in the rooms of AA.

  14. AA Is based on many negative principles Michelle. Children of Alcoholics are told that their parent has a disease, and that they do too because of the parents addiction. Children hear they are powerless as well and have to have a higher power to overcome an addiction. This website does not believe in the disease model, need for a HP, or that kids or their parents are diseased. Check out the recent article about the negativity of Alcoholics Anonymous at- http://www.huffingtonpost.com/laura-tompkins/alcoholics-anonymous_b_1383849.html Also AA and NA are not known to be as loving as you say if you decide to leave AA or NA. As long as you follow their steps and listen to your sponsor you are welcomed. God forbid you question the 12 steps or try an alternative way to sobriety!

    I dont think you will find any psychologist worth their salt that does not think children hearing AA horror and war stories, espechially for years on end is healthy. In fact it is emotionally damaging. Also exposing them to mentally ill sex predators and serial criminals is not a good idea for obvious reasons.

    This site is to show parents and others that AA and NA is not the safe little place AA and NA like to make it out to be. Majority of the people I speak with that have no experience in AA, have no clue that the judicial system has over run these meetings with very, very dangerous criminals. At http://www.nadaytona.org we have a big problem with the courts and AA/NA mandating or inviting minors to meetings, when they are in fact aware of the dangers.

    You may think it is a better of 2 evils. But a parent or a judge should not be choosing between 2 evils. They should mandate that AA and NA provide safety measures for minors as do all other organizations that have minors as clients.

    We are not making this stuff up. It is real. Sexual abuse in AA and NA has been occurring since it’s inception 75 years ago. AA is aware of this. Yet they REFUSE to do anything about it except to cover it up, much like the Catholic Church did and still does to an extent.

    We are sick of the minimization of AA/NA members to quash the truth of abuse in AA/NA. It is like a cult that will say or do anything to protect it’s name, even if it means more harm to children.

    Would you not want other people in your childrens life to not have background checks or other safety measures? Would it be okay for his teacher to be a sex predator and violent felon? How about kids babysitters, therapists, doctors and Boy Scout leaders?

    The children of addicts in AA and NA are basically treated like second class citizens, and not afforded the same respect or safety measures of children in mainstream society.

    It is healthier for children to be left with a responsible babysitter or professional childcare than take them to NA or AA meetings. It is an enviroment for adults, not children period. Meetings are even unsafe for adults as well! As these articles point out. Many people go to meeting high on drugs or alcohol, deal drugs and sexuallly harass newbies, go on to violate probation many times over.

  15. So, I am finding it very interesting that, by what I have read here is a belief that just because some really bad things have happened in some areas, that the whole program of recovery is being judged by the actions of some. These articles that are posted on this site, very much dictate a negative demographic. I am still left to wonder: number 1; what has happened in your life to make all of this negativity toward this very specific group of people, and number 2; on a comparison with all of the other bad things in the news everyday, given the anonymity of such programs where there are no attendance records, on a scale of percentage while these actions all of the articles are referencing, how much you know about how many people change their lives and become productive members of society vs. reoffending. Seriously now, these things that are on this web site are obviously meant to be one-sided. Had I been offered hope of recovery as a teen would I have grabbed on? who knows. But what I do know is that my children, based on what they have learned from the people that are in recovery, is that it is not the life they want for themselves. Because of their experience, they know what happens to people who get involved with making the wrong choices in their life. Because of my past, i am able to live a life today that would have never been possible, I can find gratitude and try to live my life based in principles and values, and pass that on to my children. Are there times that they have heard things at meetings that were not all peace and serenity, of course. But I would rather them know the truth about where a life of addiction leads then to hear their friends at school trying to convince them of lies. Meetings are to be about recovery, not war stories. When people are getting to off track, the chair person usually redirects them to, how does this relate to recovery. The details of their issues and what they have done is for working the steps with their sponsor. I know that my words may sound hollow or judgemental baseed on whatever your personal experience has been, but they are not meant to be. I truely have a passion for helping hurting people get better, because that is where I came from. The members of NA loved me til I could learn to love myself. It makes me sad to think that some people may never have hope for recovery, especially if the are driven away by negativity, from what truely is the last house on the block for some. People are dying everyday in addiction, even teenagers, I don’t want my kids to be a statistic! I do agree that there are people who are sent by the courts that relapse and do stupid things, but I will tell you that I was one. But there is hope for us! No one gave up on me and I have a wonderful life and I help as many as I can find the freedom from the old life as I can. I am sorry if you were hurt by someone claiming to be in recovery, but wasn’t living it out. Hurt people do sometime cause hurt, the 12 steps are about walking through all of our stuff and changing. My life is forever changed by people in NA and their example of how to live differently.
    I hope that you can understand what I am getting at here, NA/AA is not the only place where there are criminals, but it is one of the few places who will accept you as you are and help you grow with out judgement for your past failings. Look around, all of these thing that all of these “members”(whether they really were or not is not for me to judge) there are plenty of other places in our society that theses things are happening as well. Even in boy-scouts, churches, daycares, schools, camps… so given that we are attempting to help people with the most obvious part of the problem, their drug use, the entire problem is much more, which is what the steps are intended to address. I do have my children with me almost all the time, except while they are at school or with other family. I know where their cognitive abilities are, what they can handle hearing, and we discuss it at home if something comes up for them. I have learned to trust my own ability to know what is best for my children, and I don’t think that statement is made in ignorance or ego. If I see that someone is negatively affecting them I have the ability to get up and take them with me. The accusation that my children are somehow at risk because of me being irresponsible by taking them with me to meetings; I have a bit of a problem with that. Let me pose the question: Would it be better for them for me not to go to meetings and relapse, then drag them into the drug world? I need you to understand very clearly that it is few and far between when someone comes in under the influence and I have never to this point been exposed to using at a meeting, therefore my children are not. You can’t even go to a park in the summer with those odds.
    Sorry I was so long winded, this just happens to be the single most important thing to me. Without my recovery my family wouldn’t be there to worry about.

    • Yes, answered like the truly indoctrinated. Why not live a little – stop going to meetings. You won’t die. And you do NOT have a disease.

        Why do you come here? This is NOT a place to work your 12th step! YOU may not be ready to face the ugly truth – but many others of us – VAST NUMBERS – we know exactly why we left those damaging and oppressing rooms.

        Please do not come here and get upset to see what this place is ACTUALLY FOR. You want to sing the praises of The Fellowship? GO TO A MEETING. You want to break free from FEAR & CONTROL – like I did? Then this is one of the places to be. AND THERE ARE MANY, MANY MORE OF SITES LIKE THIS. Why?? BECAUSE THEY ARE REQUIRED.

        So please, coming here quoting program verbatim is not welcomed. We already KNOW EXACTLY what each & every one of you is going to say: WE WERE INDOCTRINATED TOO. We’ve heard it all before. We too were mindless parrots, once upon a time.

        I appreciate these sites. If I WANTED to hear the bullshit, I would go to a meeting. Honestly, I would prefer to face DEATH than that. Because that is why we left: that life HAD become like a death for us.

      • Ad Hominem attack – Really.

        I’m an athestist and do just fine in AA. Religion is believing in anothers experience; spirituality is having your own experience.

        AA encourages finding your own experience of ‘whatever it is you believe in’. The christian thing can get a bit heavy – but practising patience and tolerance is one of the benefits I’ve experienced.

        Yes, there are predators in AA as there are in any organization that is made up of people.

        The meetings that I go to do keep an eye on newcomers and children and have banned certain people for the good of the group as per Tradition 1 “Our common welfare comes first, personal recovery depends on AA unity”.

        Cult like – maybe certain specific groups but none meet the formal definition of a cult.

        Every group is different as is the case with Autonomous entities.

        One thing I believe that is of huge help, even paramount, is taking responsibiity for my mistakes and not blaming others for them.

        I won’t be back, I like an earlier poster, I question the motives and agenda of this site.

    • No…you are wrong..there is nothing to compare AA and NA meetings to anything else. Judges do not send sex offenders and violent criminals anywhere else, where there are

      NO RULES….NO SAFTY MEASURES OF ANY KIND!!!!! Yes I am yelling now so maybe you will hear me thru the internet.

      You are brainwashed. I was once brainwashed.

      They are sent to a place where most people assume that the man or woman next to them is a normal average druggie or alkie. WRONG!!!
      My husband’s firend was cut into pieces by addicts who pretended they wanted help from him. He had 15 years clean and sober. He wnet to help them in the night. They robbed and killed this sweet sober clean guy. SO we are not just addressing old timers hitting on newbies which is also happening.

      I know a woman who’s 16 year old daughter was hit on and had sex with a 40 years old guy with many many years. The MOM was a new comer.

      More stories. I interviewed a woman who at 5 years old was molested for 3 years by her mother sober boyfriend. SHe has had a really hard time getting help. For years she thought all there was was AA/NA

      WRONG again!!! Smart Recovery , Rational Recovery, LifeRing, SOS , WFS, AMY LEE COY, HANK HAYES on track and beyond and all people who have created new program because AA and NA are ridiculous and old paradigms.

  16. How many people that are being mandated are considered to be a responsible adult? What about the topics and language that children and teens hear from seasoned drug addicts and violent felons? Taking your children to 12 step meetings for 10 years shows very poor judgment on your part.

    Also minor teens are also mandated to meetings, and their parents do not realize how unsafe the meetings are. They believe the propaganda of AA and NA that it is okay for children of all ages to attend. Children have been sexually molested at meetings, emotionally harmed by the negative horror stories that they hear. As a society it is not only the responsibility of the parents, but of those that provide services for minors. Alateen, a group for minors only, that deal with family members who are substance abusers, actually do background checks, and have strict safety guidelines that they follow. Felons or sex offenders cannot sponsor minors in Alateen. Yet AA and NA both invite minors to meetings that they know are not safe, because they also invite the sex offenders, murderers and other violent felons to the same meetings!

    AA and NA do zero background checks. There are no safety guidelines for minors like other organizations that are actually being responsibility. The Boy Scouts, churches, drug rehab services for teens and many other minor oriented programs. Yet AA and NA think they are abaove the law, and put first their desire to grow. Protection of minors is not important to them whatsoever.

    When AA World Services had a meetings about sexual abuse against children and teens in AA, they voted to do NOTHING about the growing problem. They feel if they admit there is a problem they will be more liable. They are more concerned with covering their butt more than protecting vulnerable minors.

    Another point I would like to add, is your statement about children being around people who have quit drugs. As I am sure you are aware that AA and NA are FULL of addicts that continue to shoot up drugs and drink while attending meetings. Thats why so AA and NA members get hauled off to jail over and over because they violate probation for failing drug tests and committing crimes. Some go back to mental institutions as the Mental Health Courts are also mandating mentally ill patients to the rooms of AA and NA as well. So please do not put out misinformation to skew the reality of today’s 12 step meetings!

    This website is full of stories of AA and NA members who have gone on to rape, murder, rob, assault, sell drugs,abuse children and get DWI’s! These are not the demographic minors should be exposed to. Some have been murdered and raped by AA/NA/CA members.

    Parents-please do not send or bring your children to 12 step meetings as they are being over run by the judicial system, including Drug Courts mandating every dangerous criminal known to man. There are no meetings for minors in AA or NA period.

    P.S. AA and NA has cost many lives at the hands of their members.

    • I am sorry but you have no right to say Michelle is an irresponsible parent. She is one of the most responsible parents I have ever known. You have no idea what kind of a program we have in our area. Those children are very well protected, some would say over protected. I am very sorry that these horrible things are happening in other area’s, and am appalled that nobody is doing anything to change it. I think the point Michelle was trying to make is that, where were the parents when the children who are getting mandated to these meetings when these children were getting in trouble in the first place. At the point that a child gets mandated to meetings, it is still the parents responsibility to check out where it is their children are going. I have seen many parents come to meetings with their minor children some sit in the meeting some sit outside, but they are there with them. Yes, it is awful that these things are happening, but lets not forget that the responsibility of a child’s safety should be handled by the parent. I will say, if something like that happened in our area we would not protect that person! We believe that a person should take responsibility for their own actions, and we do not condone child abuse of any kind.

      • Hi Lisa, you know a small % of meetings have a seperate childcare area for children. Even though this is not very typical. Is that what yours is? Or do the children actually sit in on the meetings and listen to peoples shares/horror stories ? If they do listen than I personally feel it is harmful for them and not good judgement to let children hear these horror stories. I realize some parents feel they have no other choice if they are forced by the courts, and have no other childcare options. The courts are putting an unfair burden on mostly mothers, and the children become collateral damage. Some courts are now allowing online meetings like the ones http://www.smartrecovery.org has instead. Great option for parents with no transportation or childcare.

        Some parents do come to the meetings with their mandated minor teen, but on a small %. You are still trying to say that AA or NA has no responsibility at all for the children or minors that come to meetings that they invite. This just makes no sense at all. Do you really think it is okay for AA and NA to invite pedophiles and violent felons to the same meetings as minors? Why do does Alateen do background checks yet AA/NA refuse to put in any safety measures? Also some teens get in trouble for minor infractions like smoking pot, versus criminals raping and shooting up drugs. Teens should not be exposed to these criminals. Even if a parent was irresponsible in the first place, does not mean the minor teen should be thrown in with hardened criminals.

        Here is an article where a child was sexually molested at a meeting in Georgia by a mandated criminal, and her parents were actually at the meeting!


        • I am not saying that these acts are not horrible, because they are. It appalls me that these things are happening. I am grateful to the rooms of NA because it changed my life, and can not imagine if those things were happening in the area where I live. As far as Michelle and her children are concerned, she usually has them wear headphones if they have to be in the same room as the meeting. Most people around here are pretty respectful when there is children in the room, and we all love her children. And when new mothers come in to the rooms I always tell them to watch their children because they do not always know the background of the person sitting next to them. The safety of children should always come first. Many of those children have already had pretty messed up lives, and they do not need anything more to happen to them.

          • Exactly, many of these children have pretty messed up lives already. Even though you say Michelle “usually has them wear headsets” is not an acceptable long term solution for keeping children away from emotional and physical harm from the violent felons and sexual predators that come to the AA and NA rooms. Of course there are thousands of AA and NA meetings that have children attend with parents. Not all parents are going to have them with headsets. You cannot know ahead of time what some one is going to share with the group. It just is not healthy for children to hear these horror stories.

            Also the fact that both AA and NA are going into our high schools and inviting minor teens to meetings with felons and sex predators is unconscionable. AA or NA has never made an attempt to seperate these 2 groups. Again, Alanon made Alateen have safety guidelines in regard to minors.


    • So has iresponsible parrents and poor supervision.12 step programs are saving lives every day.If parrents could keep their children fron being alcoholic and drug addicts the children would not need 12 step programs.The courts order them to go their because they work if the person is willing to work at staying sober.My oppinion the parrents bashing 12 step programs just might have a problem themselvs.My experience is that kids did not become alcoholic or drug addicts just because.Alcohol and drugs are a symptom of their problem.It is also hereditary.Parents please do some more research. AA will be celebrating 77 years.If you are so concernd go with them,attend Alonon,Naronon you might help save them alot of pain and also their life.

      • Claude, minor teens are mandated along with felons because of a lack of insight of the court system. AA meetings are not a safe place for teens, period. It might just save their lives by NOT going, and getting them non 12 step substance help based on progressive treatments.

        Even if a parent has not been a great parent, does not mean a minor should be protected any less than other minors. AA nor NA has any meetings for minors. The ones that are held within juvenile detention are only while they are in detention with other minors. Yet once they are out of juvenile detention there are no AA meetings for minors. That is setting them up for failure. Not to mention the whole 12 step dogma is not popular among teens anyway!

      • AA is “celebrating” 77 years. Do you know what your hero Bill W’s intentions were when founding his cult? Time to use that brain. To indoctrinate people into his own christian beliefs. He openly admitted that the 12 steps came directly from the christian cult he attended: The Oxford Group. And you do NOT have a disease. That is bullshit. Cancer is a disease. There is NO scientific or medical evidence to support that disease concept, invented by two old drunks who LIED to AA members: oh yes, Bill DIED of his addiction: to cigarettes. Yet he did not consider informing AA members that smoking IS dangerous – no him and Bob told them “Smoke up! You can do anything else – just don’t drink.”

        77 years of lies & entrapment is LONG ENOUGH. How cruel – to tell people that they can NEVER RECOVER – that they have a disease that can sneak up at any time! That is IMMORAL. These people who drank from 15 -18, now 66 years sober and lording it over new members like some kind of saint. YOU DIDN’T DRINK ALCOHOL. BIG FUCKING DEAL. SO DO MANY – but you don’t see them fronting up for cakes and claps for decades on end! WOW – YOU DIDN’T GET STONED! WHAT A HERO!

        No, REAL diseases are tragic. They cause ACTUAL SUFFERING. Not getting drunk or stoned is hardly a painful affliction.

        And I am a de-programmed ex-12 step cult member. Oh how glad that I managed to regain my sense of REASON.

      • Claude- no they dont work for 95 % of those who go. Children do not belong there. I know a woman who’s son was molested raped and murdered by his 12 stepping sponsor.

        The FBI took 4 years to catch 23 men who were targeting AA meetings and rehabs for young boys in meetings with their parents. Easy prey.

        I know that NA and AA both need to address member safety at every level
        including minor safety. They will both be sued if this is not done quickly. Things are really heating up.

  17. So… just a thought. When minors attend meetings, at what place does the fact that their protection is their parents responsibility, go out the window? I have been bringing my children to meetings for ten years, and as the responsible adult in their lives, it is my job to supervise them and to make sure they dont end up in a compromising situation (whether at a meeting or anywhere). Even if in their teens attendance ends up required by the courts for some reason, does their protection suddenly become someone elses responsibility? Of course not! Maybe another note to consider on this would be what situation did a child end up in to begin with that would mandate required attendance? and where were the people in their lives that should have maybe known where they were and what they were up too? So to say that clean addicts would be more dangerous than the using addicts they were obviously already surrounding themselves with, well my personal belief on that is that maybe we as parents need to be paying attention long before a scenario like this would even occur. You might want to think that through, before judging something that has saved so many lives, families, and children.

      • You said it! My son (now 23) accompanied me to Sun. meetings from age 8 on, as well as a few others. Never, ever did I allow him to wander about – he was nearby at all times, generally with headphones on doing homework or reading/drawing, as AA discussions are not what he needed to hear. The times he came along were when I could not find other safe care arrangements only.

        • Well at least we do agree that what is said in AA meetings are not what children need to hear. Many people bring children and they are NOT wearing headphones and drawing. I have seen coutless kids listening to all of the horror stories in the midst of violent felons and other court mandates,including the mentally deranged. Headsets do not protect children from being exposed by dangerous criminals.

  18. Hello NA Daytona,
    Interesting Post, My boyfriend will soon be celebrating 20 years clean and sober. He only goes to meetings once or twice a year these days, and seems reluctant to “make a fuss” and pick up a chip, especially in a new place with a new group. (We just moved to a new area.)

    I am VERY proud of him, and we both know this is a big deal. How can I encourage him? I need ideas about what others who have long-term sobriety have done regarding celebrations, chips, etc. (We’ve been dating for less than a year, so I’m clueless.)

    I also need to know how to talk to him about this, and whether / how I could participate. I don’t want to push… he needs to do this on his own. But I don’t want him to “aw, shucks” over it, either. He’s a very sweet, humble fellow, and I want him to know that others can benefit from hearing about his experience.

    I also want to know what I can give him to show him how proud I am of him.

    Thanks in advance for you answers, and best wishes to others in recovery!
    Good Job!

    • So, let me challenge that indoctrination: your boyfriend has not got stoned for 20 years. And this inspires great pride? So, for the thousands of millions that have also not used a substance for…like NEVER, like Muslims let’s say…are you EQUALLY proud of them?

      Do you equate the “success” & “pride” of refraining from being a drug pig with that same sense of achievement that one might feel on completing a PhD? That process which involves years upon years of dedicated research and work, at the end of which one walks away with an expanded knowledge and sense of real achievement.

      Yet I have seen over and over these long term NA members strut about proudly in meetings “10 years this week” – yet over that time all they’ve gained is a greater number of contacts within NA, and a god-like status as a sponsor with the “knowledge” of the 12 steps. The best these gurus can come up with is “prayer to your higher power and it will aaalllllll be all-right.”

      I challenge you because THIS is exactly the nature off cults.

      This is a place (a rapidly growing number of them) where we can acknowledge the harm that IS AA/NA. We have experienced that. We have done the research. We know the statistics (not the lies told within the cult) of drug cessation.

      Yet I continue to see dedicated members come here and beat the drum for The Steps.


      Please do not come here and get upset to see what this place is ACTUALLY FOR. You want to sing the praises? GO TO A MEETING. You want to break free from FEAR & CONTROL – like i did? Then it is here. We KNOW EXACTLY what each & every one of your is going to say: WE WERE INDOCTRINATED TOO.

      I appreciate these sites. If I WANTED to hear the bullshit, I would go to a meeting. Honestly, I would prefer to face DEATH than that.

      • “Cat & Massive” – Reading your angry rantsjust now, I am certain to my core that you are no longer sober (yet you are “free of AA”). God bless you, you seem to really need it…even more than most. Peace.

        • Just because their are past AA members who found out the hard way how much AA fails people, you feel they must be drinking! That is such a typical response from a 12 steppper! If you are not working the program, or are critical of 12 step dogma and dangers one must be drinking? I believe Massive has been sober 37 years. So what you think you know to your core is WRONG! AA is not the only way!

    • Great ….so he is clan for 20 years. Is he sane, happy, working, productive. Maybe he doesnt need meetings anymore.

      Besides, meetings 20 years ago were not filled with Court ordered and DUI’s who DO NOT want to be there.

      TEll him about Smart REcovery, SOS, Secular Organizations for rSobriety, life RIng. Does he know there are alternative support groups now that might be healthier?

      TEll him about me. Massive on Blog talk radio Safe Recovery. I left AA after over 3 decades. I know some NA board guys with 40 plus years. So what. Time….time and more time. Its all a strange bunch of crazy stuff after 30 anyway. Leave him be. His instincts are right.

  19. I like the layout of this new site 🙂

    Your topic here at NA Daytona is very important. I hope it gets a lot of attention.

    I’d like to add that safety concerns in NA/AA meetings are not addressed in any way. I’ve actually heard it frowned upon by members, that think it might “scare” addicts from seeking recovery there. Should seeking recovery from addiction be considered more important than personal safety? Concerning mandatory meeting attendance by felons and the amount of crime taking place in, I would think that safety would be one of the top priorities of these 12 step groups. They are supposed to be wellness groups after all.

    Regardless, these meetings are not appropriate for young people. They are unsupervised. And as they are famous for stating, AA is and will remain “forever unprofessional” and “anonymous”.

    I hope people with children research other recovery models such as the ones you suggested.

    Thanks for helping raise awareness and working on getting these laws changed 🙂

  20. “Jail or Church? Between a ROC and a Hard Place

    When the ACLU calls for alternatives to incarceration, this isn’t what we have in mind. A new program in Bay Minette, Alabama, offers an unconstitutional choice for non-violent offenders. Operation Restore Our Community, or “ROC,” will give misdemeanor offenders a choice. They can both pay a fine and go to jail, or they can have their charges dismissed entirely if they go to church for a year.

    To have their cases dismissed, participating offenders must attend a church of their choosing every week for a year. They must also check in weekly both with the pastor of the church and the police department and answer questions about the services they attend. ”

    Read More: http://www.aclu.org/blog/religion-belief/jail-or-church-between-roc-and-hard-place

    Are Drug Offenses considered non-violent?

    • Children are in just as much danger just going out side.These minor children that are court ordered to meetings probably need them ,it just might save their life if they have a serious alcohol or drug problem.Besides the parents or an adult can go with them to open meetings, also they are are wide spread don’t have to go to one particular meeting.

      • I do not agree that children are in just as much danger as going outside, than going to an AA/NA meeting. Some 12 step meetings are anywhere from 50%-80% court mandated attendees! You do not have those kind of odds just stepping out your door! It is not like we do not want to see felons and the mentally ill get help, it is in everybodys best interest that people in the criminal justice system get as much help and rehabilitation as possible. This does not mean minor teens should be mixed in with hardened violent habitual criminals! It is comparing apples to oranges. Even groups that like to consider themselves young people groups, are NOT just for minors. Does it really make a Mom or Dad feel any better knowing her 14 or 15 year old is hanging around 20 to 40 year old addicts and criminals from the ‘young peoples group’? It is only an illusion perpurtrated by Alcoholics Anonymous World Services and Narcotics Anonymous World Services. Some older member seek out just younger peoples meetings so they can sexually harasss them or worse. Again AA/NA/CA have zero under 18 meetings for minors. Even though they are expanding their efforts to sink their hooks into our children so they will have young members to carry the message for decades to come. As they teach them that they will need meetings for the rest of their lives, and it is their responsibility to spread the 12 step words of Bill W. in an evangilical way.

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