ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS ADMITS AA MEMBERS ROLE IN SUICIDES

THE AA MEMBER-MEDICATION & OTHER DRUGS

This is AA General Service Conference approved literature

Because of the difficulties that many alcoholics have with drugs some members have taken the position that no one in AA should take any medication, while this position has undoubtedly prevented relapses for some, it has meant disaster for others.

A.A. members and many of their physicians have described situations in which depressed patients have been told by A.A.s to throw away the pills, only to have depression return with all its difficulties, sometimes resulting in suicide.

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Some Alcoholics require medication

We have heard, too, from members with other conditions, including schizophrenia, bi-polar disorder, epilepsy and others requiring medication, that well-meaning A.A. friends discourage them from taking any prescribed medication. Unfortunately, by following a layperson’s advice, the sufferers find that their conditions can return with all their previous intensity. On top of that, they feel guilty because they are convinced that  A.A. is against pills.

_______________________________________________________________________

No A.A. member should “play doctor”; all medical advice and treatment should come from a qualified physician.

Complete Medications and other Drugs pamphlet By AA General Services-

http://www.aa.org/assets/en_US/p-11_aamembersMedDrug.pdf

Prevent Suicide psa.jpg

 

38 thoughts on “ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS ADMITS AA MEMBERS ROLE IN SUICIDES

  1. NY AA was attractive ten yrs ago. But I was harrassed by cocaine addicts who drove people out of AA meetings by ridicule weapons ,lies for landlords. They used Houston St, Second on Second which is now for “law enforcement” . They came into my apt and cut up clothing,some claim to have 2-5 yrs. It was worse than a cult. Any AA rm I went to was bought out by some creeps to harrass me , all over the world. Rms that were fairly safe overseas. Some of them were deported after a few yrs . I had to go to the US embassy and complain. Some claim to be former govt employees and assure the harrassment teams that they will never go to jail. Some did in some cities you dont want to ever see the prisons . I went to NC new people would show up and use the same signals and non stop deaf mute signs sitting near me, start rumours about some felonies I had. I have NONE. They stay for a few mos then go to Va, Florida and continue getting paid to harrass people out of 12 step meetings for divorces and vendettas or just target people until they die or commit suicide. Some were young pretty females who could get the older lonely guys to harrass me in cars, in the meeting . One guy would be in a closet the whole meeting Asheville NC using a taser some gun dealers know about. It works through cheap doors ,glass and will cause you to have a heart attack after some time. There were rapes in NY but this is a slow kill many people dont know about. See photobucket under gangstalking, group stalking. It is far worse than you think. Oh and free motorbikes after a few mos for some. Halfway houses are used to slow kill people for medical testing. I would not have believed this ten yrs ago. I know now.

      • Right, but that is a rather rude way to put it. I do not mean to be equally rude…..BTW

        If the above post is for real.

        This is called TI “Targeted Individual”. Read about it a bit, it is a really interesting, rather new form of mental illness. Those who suffer it lead a tortured existence, it may be the most horrid mental illness to have. For various reasons.

  2. A.A is a joke.. The drunks are treated like celebrities and the family members are treated like crap. Spouses and children are beat on but told to “be sensitive towards the recovery and recovering drunk”.

    It’s some dangerous crap and avoid it at all costs.

  3. I was never aware of AA sponsors telling sponsees to stop taking psychiatric medication. I think it is the depressing philosophy of powerlessness that is killing these people. People come into the program for help with their problems. They need some empowering and positive help; instead they are given such negative pictures of themselves. A newcomer is taught to be even more dependent and helpless than when they came in, and that is deadly for many of us.

    • The program teaches powerlessness. That does not mean that we are helpless or hopeless. As a human being, the only power we have, is over our own actions and reactions. That is what the programs teach. Hope this helps in understanding a bit more. Much love to ya.

        • Correct. If that’s all you got out of my statement, that’s correct. I have no power over changing the way you look at things, do things, or say things. Just like you are powerless over the same things with me or anyone else. I can ask that you have an open mind, but I cannot force you to have one. Much love to u

  4. I just tore up my slips I’m not gonna go anymore, I don’t share and I would never participate in group think.

    I feel liberated! Jail is a piece of cake been there once before 1 week, will serve my time and be let out.

    Afterwards I’ll just follow the law.

    • Sounds like a good plan Sal. Many people feel going to 12 step meetings and all the other hoops probation officers want you to go through is just not worth it. Many choose to just to do their time and be free, especially of AA and NA meetings.

      • At least no one in jail will ask you if you found a higher power yet. As a part of probation, no less, interrogate you on your “spirituality.” No US justice system should enforce the religious 12 Step movement nor give them people to funnel money into the meetings.

  5. I have been attending AA for 20 years unfortunately. I never felt I fit into their rigid and controlling philosophies. I had terrible sponsorship. They would try to control my life. Tell me how I needed to live my life. I only stayed out of fear because I was told AA was the only way and that I would surely die if I left.

    I have had no alcohol for 20 years but recently had a bout with pain killers. I was told my bodies level of tolerance increased, thus taking more and more pain killers. At some point I crossed the line. I also suffer from Bipolar 2 which causes severe depression, anxiety and suicidal ideation.

    I put myself in detox and now am pain killer free. The problem I had with AA. Is they are very strict about keeping your clean date. I have learned if you have a slip you have to lose all your time and start all over again. This did not work for me. I had so many negative AA tapes in my head which brought me so much anguish all around changing my sobriety date.

    I went into a deep depression, loads of guilt/shame and suicidal ideation. I kept hearing the AA voices in my head. What they expect you to do is walk in the meetings with your head held down in shame and say I screwed up and have to start all over again.

    I told someone in AA that I thought I could confide in. She ended up telling my former “sick” sponsor of my situation. This “sick” sponsor ended up sharing it with one of my closest friends in AA and told her I needed to start my recovery date all over. So I was gossiped about.

    This former sponsor attends AA on a daily basis. She was a former prison guard at a mens facility. Why I chose her I don’t know. All she talks about is all the ridiculous rules of AA. Her whole life is AA.

    I went to the store yesterday and there is a gal I know in AA. She always smiles at me and gives me a big hug. This time she ignored me. I know she knows of my fall because the original person I thought I could trust is her sponsor.

    It’s like if you have relapsed your are now tainted. What a way to treat people.

    I have since decided with the help of Dr. Brena Brown on “shame and vulnerability” have chosen to look at my experience as a spiritual awakening. I chose not to disregard my 20 years without alcohol and know for me I cannot take pain killers.

    I have also gone to counseling trying to recover from people in recovery. AA ways have put me into further depression and self doubt about myself. They talk about smashing the ego. Well I don’t have a healthy one to begin with. How about building and working on getting a healthy ego.

    They say to take a moral inventory. Well I inventory the hell out of myself. How about building on positive aspects of ourselves.

    It’s taken along time for me to be brainwashed into this sick culture so I know it will take some time to get the negative damaging rule out of my head.

    As I type I am still so unsure of myself. I’m afraid of peole in AA and what they may say about me. I am now on a on-line support group called Woman for Sobreity and they have been very helpful and supportive of me.

    AA says you have a part, you always have a part. They made me accountable for everything that I did not need to be accountable for. I once had a refreshing response by an Alanon sponsor. She said maybe your part is you just didn’t know how to defend yourself from AA people. So true.

    I am now also reading about deprogramming my brain from damaging AA rhetoric.

    Thank goodness I could find a place to post my story.

    • Hi Lucymae and welcome! Thank you so much for your story. It will no doubt help others that are experiencing the same feelings you have.

      You mentioned your x sponsor gossipping about you. This is where I see a huge problem with 12 step programs. They demand you confess your failings to virtual strangers that have no training whatsoever and are technically under no legal obligation to keep your story private.

      It is a form of emotional abuse to make vulnerable people tell their deepest secrets just to use it against them and also to share it with others. As we all know stories can get twisted around, so what was already a story of failure turns into a more sordid tale. I firmly believe that this is the reason many end up staying in AA and NA. They LOVE the AA gossip mill. They love the control over others. It is a perfect haven for people with narcissistic personality disorder and a host of other personality disorders.

      No one like to talked about in a bad way. Many people in AA and online are bullied even to the point of suicide. I am sure being in AA tested you to the limit, and very thankful your suicidal ideation went no further than it did.

      It is a hard lesson to learn about being private. In general it is best to only confide in those you trust or a professional you can trust.

      I am really glad to hear you are participating in online meetings with Women for Sobriety. Even though I have been told they can come across a bit steppish themselves, so be careful.

      I have suggested SMART Recovery online meetings for years. I do not know if you have checked them out, but wanted to let you know they have them as well.

      Online meetings actual offer true anonymity. No one can recognize you like they do in a meeting. You are not told to give your number out to strangers. You can do it in the comfort and safety of your own home.

      I agree with you about the moral inventory. One it is none of their business. Plus the human mind can be very fragile, most people have a hard time accepting their shortcomings. Why strip people of their self respect and confidence? I think it is a brainwashing technique in an effort to control members.

      It sounds like you are doing better and made it through your pill addiction-Thank goodness for that! Congratulations!

      As far as your clean date, you should be proud of your 20 years. Even AA cannot take that away from you. It is absurd they tell people they need to start over.

      WHat are you reading to deprogram now?

    • Lucymae, know that you were abused by the AA system and these people. The shame is INTENSE. All there ever is is inventory taking, guilt, shame, fear….negative emotions. I understand where your mind is at, please know you are a stronger person than I was since I always imagined I would have to commit suicide if I ever “went back out” in order to escape the shame and self-hatred.

      I am glad you are seeking help in getting out of this thinking. You had a bad experience with pain-killer, so what? You and how many other people! You are working on helping yourself, good for you. A person shouldn’t be kicked down for finding out that a particular medication isn’t something they should take. You are a human being.

      Best luck to you.

    • Lucymae you touched me with your story. I relapsed after 12 years and the shame of it kept me out for ten years,it took a DWI to get me back. The rooms are filled with predators and control freaks just like many other groups in this sick society. Inner strength is my only defense against illogical morons who stumble through life like guppies. I still go to meetings and voice my rage against the hypocrisy of its founder and moral maniacs trying to free themselves of instincts by pretending to be holier than thou born agains. They can kiss my ass as I protect the newcomer from the ignorant old-timer club. The preamble is all anyone needs to live by when it comes to what is expected from an AA member. Lets recover together in spirit although I don’t know you I know your pain.

  6. I find it dubious that AA claims to cooperate with professionals— such as medical professionals… even attorneys/ judges (http://www.ilaa.org/home/) — would UPGRADE their Medication pamphlet but not create a SAFETY pamphlet against other dangers— Sexual predators/ molestors — It’s hard to even trust doctors & law enforcement out of fear they’re pro-AA or AA members themselves. I almost think members originally wanted to be Anonymous just to hide their crazy, batsh*t philosophies from the outside world… It’s done more harm than good to tell members ‘secrets keep you sick’ but, stay ‘anonymous’ and don’t reveal your membership… It is fundamentally IMPOSSIBLE to keep your membership in AA a secret, most people are not bothered by others who don’t drink alcohol, and AA made up an imaginary world where EVERYONE else is drinking without impunity— Original members were implanted weird twisted thoughts of jealousy of others who can drink, that continues to this day. Their solution is to act arrogant while they preach ‘humility’ and ‘ego deflation’ etc… AA is the most arrogant organization I’ve ever heard of.

    • Hi Juliet! Great to see you here. Isnt that ironic that an organization that preaches humility is so incredibly arrogant? What is up with that?

      As far as the police are concerned we ran into trouble in our area because they were 12 steppers that were police officers and they most often protected the Daytona AA and Daytona AA members. SO the steppers that they had us over a barrel. That there was nothing we could do. Little did they realize the power of the pen and how a picture can tell a thousand words.

      As far as safety issues in AA, I believe they think if they do not admit to any problems they will be less liable. It seems to have worked well for them until recently, when people are learning they are hoarding millions of dollars and none of it goes to help addicts. When people learn that non profits can be held liable.

      On top of the fact they still refuse to create any safety guidelines, they continue to go into our schools and colleges inviting these kids to the the same meetings!

  7. Pingback: Is Your New Year’s Resolution to Leave AA? | illbefreeordie

  8. From- The Fix

    Are People Who Take Anti-Depressants Really Sober?

    It’s time for abstinence extremists to stop spreading the dangerous propaganda that “clean and sober” means no medications for depression, anxiety and other mental health problems.

    Abstinence extremism can be dangerous to your health.

    By Kristen McGuiness 06/30/2011

    Does abstinence from booze, coke, heroin and other substances include medications for common mental health problems like depression, anxiety, bipolar disorder, even schizophrenia? Many people in recovery—particularly those in 12-step programs—seem to think so. And some, often out of an excess of conviction, attempt to persuade fellow members that “clean and sober” means no Prozac, no Effexor, no Klonopin, no Abilify.

    Yet why should these drugs for medical conditions that are no less biologically based, chronic and debilitating than diabetes or heart disease be banned? Given that many studies have shown that the incidence of mental health problems is vastly more common among addicts, denying them safe and effective treatment seems dangerous, to say the least. A medical doctor who denies treatment to a patient is generally viewed as unfit to practice. Is it time for all these evangelical abstinence adherents to stop playing doctor?

    These questions are increasingly being asked not only by addiction specialists but many people who swear by their 12-step programs.

    When Paul R. was nine years’ sober, he felt he was facing two choices: relapse or suicide. “In early sobriety, I was on [the antidepressant] Wellbutrin, but after a few years I decided I wanted to be entirely abstinent from everything,” the 39-year-old New Orleans medical-office assistant recalls. “But then the anxiety came back. After eight months it got to the point where I had trouble leaving my apartment—and if I was in a large social situation, like an AA meeting, I was just paralyzed.” Paul ended up in the hospital after fearing he might commit suicide. “I realized that it was a new surrender for me,” he says. “I was trying to control something I could not control: my own mind.”

    After being hospitalized, Paul got back on Wellbutrin. Two years later, he was married and, not long after that, became a father for the first time. “I had gotten really dogmatic in my program,” he says now. “No alcohol-based products, no anti-depressants. I thought that was how my sobriety should look. But it wasn’t realistic and it wasn’t healthy.”
    *************
    Unfortunately, there are some folks in the 12-step world who attach stigma to the use of SSRIs and other psych meds. That was LA executive assistant Mary T.’s biggest fear. With large blue eyes and a nervous air, she has suffered from lifelong depression and knew that getting sober didn’t equal getting sane. “It’s hard to hear people say you’re not sober if you’re on antidepressants,” she says. “I have been horribly depressed in sobriety, and without the medication I wouldn’t be able to get out of bed on a regular basis.” Mary attempted suicide at 15 and was hospitalized for six weeks for depression a year later. “I didn’t start drinking until 18 and I don’t think I was an alcoholic until I was 25, but I would have killed myself long before I got around to drinking without the antidepressants. They have kept me alive.”

    Michael has encountered similar anti-medication prosthelytizing. “In my home group recently, a speaker shared that he didn’t believe that addicts or alcoholics should use antidepressants as a way to treat their symptoms,” he says. “To me, that’s an outside issue, and to bring in your opinion like that from the podium is inappropriate and dogmatic. This isn’t Scientology or Christian Science. When these people look at someone who is on an antidepressant, do they see a ‘stoned’ person or someone who used to be depressed and is now hopeful?”

    Complete article-

    http://www.thefix.com/content/let-cooler-meds-prevail?page=all

    • I was raised in Christian Science. No medications since the time I was ten years old. How scary is it to wake up with the with a fever from the flu and wonder if you will ever wake up again? I am not a Christian Scientist now nor will I ever be.

    • This is NOT the opinion of AA or NA. These opinions are that of untrained and misinformed individuals. I hate when people try to play doctors in the rooms. While in the rooms, it doesn’t matter what your professional title is; doctor, lawyer, etc. We are all equals and are only there to help eachother stay clean or sober. This DOES NOT mean to go against your outside doctors advice. Unfortunately, there are always going to be these people that “think” they know everything. I do however want to point out something about the stories you shared, especially Paul R’s story. If you notice, THEY made the decision to stop THEIR medication. No one made them. I have heard countless times during a share “WE ARE NOT DOCTORS. DO NOT STOP ANY NECESSARY MEDICATION PRESCRIBED BY YOUR DOCTOR.” I’m noticing a whole lot of comments on this page coming from non addicts or alcoholics, or people that have not attended meetings. Research of this magnitude on this site comes from years of hands on experience, not going to one or two meetings, and definitely not from people that don’t have the disease of addiction. I truly do wish that people would keep their personal opinions of how to take doctor prescribed medication, out of the rooms of AA and NA, however, it’s a wish that won’t come true. Only thing I can do is share what the programs opinion is, which is, listen to the professional doctors, not the addict or alcoholic.

      • Well Nick the problem is that AA refuses to do anything when they know this is a huge problem in AA to the point that it has caused suicides. They let sponsors do and say anything to their sponcees. There is much evidence of this common practice. If AA actually feels what they officially say then they should back it up with some actions to protect people.

        • I don’t agree, nor disagree, however, as much of a tragedy as this incident was, and my heart and prayers go out to the family and friends of Karla and any other victim of the same type, the blame lays solely on the man sitting in prison. If someone commits the same act, and they are a member of a certain church, we do not blame the church, or the pastors that run it, we blame the individual themselves. The man responsible for this crime, is sitting behind bars for 26 to life. I know your going to come back with “well the courts don’t send criminals to church.” You’re right. So go after the courts. The only reason they send them to these programs, is because they have seen results from them, and realize that we don’t have the resources to place and keep every criminal in jail or prison. Just my personal opinion and experience. If she was a friend of yours,I truly am sorry for your loss. I too have gone through a few similar tragedies through my life. God bless

    • In Australia, 31 years ago, AA members often were told “Pills are for dills.” Now, however, members are told that we are not to interfere in medical matters, and to leave medicine to doctors – or we could be sued. I have no argument with that.

  9. This came from Orange Papers

    Family Sues Alcoholics Anonymous Over Suicide Of AA Member

    Massive,
    I’m aware that AA was sued around 2007 by the family & survivor’s of a suicide victim. Said victim was schizophrenic & on medicine prescribed by a physician. If I recall correctly victim was a male, lonely, vulnerable & socially inept due to his mental illness. He began attending AA meetings in N.Y. city & finally belonged to something & had social interaction which his life lacked due to his mental illness. AA member’s were his only “friends” & social contacts. Said AA members coerced this vulnerable & ill man to stop taking his medicine & he complied with their non qualified medical advise, due to not taking the medicine, he killed himself. Through out his life he had self medicated with alcohol & street drugs, but that had stopped once he was treated by a qualified physician & on medicine. His survivors, were of course outraged @ what had occurred to him @ AA meetings, they sued, AA quietly & quickly settled for 2.7 million. I really regret I did not print the article pertaining to this lawsuit when it was available on the internet the winter of 2009/2010. It is no longer on the web, I would think due to the settlement, the agreement included a verbal & written gag on the incident. I do recall that @ first AA members in the group defended AA, however in a lawsuit, anything that gets thrown to the wall & sticks becomes part of the suit. Said AA member’s were included in the lawsuit & were going to be personally sued for their liability. Basically, if you have own or have any wealth you are fair game in a suit. Said AA member’s quickly changed their stories when they were being sued right along with AA & threw AA under the bus. I believe the recourse to take regarding the sexual abuse & exploitation that occurs in AA & that AA will not be accountable for or provide solutions or protection & is therefore grossly negligent is lawsuits. I can only surmise the first step is to find class action attorneys who want the cases, AA has deep pockets & are therefore worth class action attorneys time & attention. A class action attorney will know how to gather the victims, all said attorneys need is one victim to get the ball rolling. I am sure there are numerous & multiple AA members who have contacted the big dogs @ AA & asked for help regarding the sexual abuse & that AA pleaded not responsible. It would start with documentation of those complaints, which of course would be in writing & retained by the people who reached out to AA for help with the abuse & were ignored, the problem neglected. Once an organization is advised of misconduct, inappropriate, criminal, abusive, etc., etc., etc., behavior & actions within their organization & they do not take the appropriate measures to protect it’s members, they are liable. I do know AA tries to cover it’s ass, by writing that sexual abuse is not allowed, that member’s are not to tell other members to not take their medicine, but it’s not enough. Ultimately where AA is responsible is for participating in the court & parole & probation mandated & forced attendance of non voluntary members. AA should responsibly refuse that any member is convicted & forced to attend, however this has been AA’s bread & butter for years & without it by now the group would be as small as the prior Oxford Group is now. Will let you know any info pertaining to this.

    patti

    • i’m not an avid aa promoter – aa is based on attraction, not promotion, and i agree totally that aa is not very attractive, except to the courts, who can’t control the criminals they deal with. to alleviate this problem, they have criminalized alcohol abuse, and flooded aa with people who are not alcoholic, to give the impression that they are doing something. as you have rightly noted, aa is full of people with all kinds of problems, as is society as a whole. aa is no panacea for humanity’s ills, it is only a solution for the alcoholic of the type described, and the solution proscribed in the text is NOT to depend on other people for answers. since you have noted that “legal experts” have determined that aa is a religion, then why are the courts mandating attendence to a religion? you people can’t think straight, you better get to a meeting, where they will likely tell you to stop thinking, i’m sorry to say. most of this attitude about recovery began when UNTHINKING citizens looked the other way and allowed the courts to ignore the laws. the aa program is not a place (meetings), or a dogma (religion), it is a way of life that is described in a book. since the people you are talking about are not following those ideas, they are NOT “in the program”, they are simply going to rooms where people talk, just like churches and governments, which are equally ineffective and at fault, not just what you call “aa”.

      • Hey velvet, I disagree with your final points that the people we are talking about are not following the ideas of the big book are not in the program. Part of AA’s problem is the big book and the program ! The answer is not only to follow the big book and these problems will go away. I mean 13 stepping has been going on long before courts got involved and other sexual and financial predatory behavior.

        I certainly agree that AA is no panacea for humanity’s ill’s. In fact they do a good job of making them much worse. The courts are abusing power by mandating AA and NA when they know it is unconstitutional. Many people are scared to speak up and disagree with a judge that has so much power over their lives. But speak up they must to change this madness. Those that oversee the judges need to admonish them and stop their abuse of power.

        As far as churches and governments being equally ineffective and at fault is a bit of a stretch. It depends what services are being provided by either government or churches. Some are quite effective and less dangerous. The government that runs the Drug Courts and Department of corrections are failing miserably when they mandate people to 12 step programs.

  10. This is an interesting comment from LFOD on Orange Papers

    AA by its nature (a hokey religion) does indeed cause some “alcoholic” AA members to suicide.

    Alcoholics Anonymous (AA) and the “treatment programs” that it is has spawned (12 step programs) can be harmful to the individual alcohol abuser. The discussion following will discuss AA/12 step programs and the human condition.

    For ease of discussion any use of AA will be meant to incorporate AA and the numerous 12 step “programs” of alcohol abuse.

    Upon its founding (1935) and continuing to today AA claims its program is one of spirituality and not religious. AA and its fellowship continues this claim despite the fact that AA has been examined by numerous state and federal courts and these various courts have ruled that AA is a religion. AA is, without a doubt, a religion.

    This AA religion teaches that any individual that embraces the program of AA is powerless over alcohol; their life is unmanageable as a result of alcohol. AA the religion insists that the alcohol abuser is full of character defects. AA the religion insists these numerous character defects must be admitted to, examined and removed in order to survive to live another day.

    AA the religion insists that one must turn their life over to god in order to live another day; to not do so will result in the individual finding their self in jail, prison, institutionalized or, ultimately, dead. Powerful stuff no?

    AA the religion, by it true nature, can cause fear, anxiety, restlessness, despair, hopelessness, depression, anger and numerous other human emotions that are detrimental to the human condition. AA the religion throws into this mix all the numerous character defects and then tells the AA newcomer that only god can help (by miracles) with their dire situation. Miracles Performed Here.

    When god does not perform the miracle for the newcomer some will become even more depressed, angry, hopeless, etc.

    ɸɸɸɸɸɸɸɸɸɸɸɸɸɸɸɸɸɸɸɸɸɸɸɸɸɸɸɸɸɸɸɸɸɸɸɸ

    Letters #1 & 2 received by Orange from readers of the Orange Papers.

    #1

    I forgot one thing. The suicide rate in AA of people sober longer than 15 years. Unfortunately a study has not been done, but the first eight years I was in AA, I knew (not just of, but knew) 17 people with over 15 years of sobriety, who committed suicide. Most of them were not “dry drunks”. Also, I was present at a meeting where the husband of one member came in and shot his wife and then himself. I remember hearing for the next week how freaked people were that their “safe place” had been denigrated. I remember saying to people that they were nuts if this was their safe place as there were rapists, pedophiles, murderers, and other criminals sitting next to them at almost every meeting. If only I had understood the depth of that statement.

    #2

    Date: Sun, December XX, XXXX 1:45 pm
    From: Anonymous
    Dear Sir/ Madam,

    I have enjoyed reading your material on the net concerning the AA cult. I spent 8 years of my life in this evil organisation. In that time I have seen many young men commit suicide, a direct result I believe of the program. I brought this subject up at meetings but of course they tried to put me down.
    When I shared about being beaten by my parents as a child I was told to make amends to them! I just laughed loudly.

    I have also seen sponsors, who think they’re great spiritual masters, exploit women for sex. This is very common.

    It is a difficult problem, as members believe deep down that they are right, that AA is perfect. Most disturbing of all is that they believe they will die if they leave AA, hence the appalling suicide rate. I live in XXXX, Ireland, but I believe AA is the same everywhere. Keep up the good work in exposing this evil cult.

    Yours
    Anonymous
    ***********************************************************

    The above are unsolicited letters from readers of the Orange Papers that chose to write to Orange in emails and discuss their own experiences and thoughts on AA.

    Orange responded to each one. I thank you Orange and salute you for your efforts.

    I personally have no doubt in my mind that AA causes some AA members to suicide and that AA is, as a result of the AA religion, responsible for the suicides of some AA members. Not all, but some, and that is irresponsible and evil. This is my belief and it is real.

    ɸɸɸɸɸɸɸɸɸɸɸɸɸɸɸɸɸɸɸɸɸɸɸɸɸɸɸɸɸɸɸɸɸɸɸɸ

    Below are letters 3 & 4 written to Orange on the subject of AA & suicides.

    I again point out to the reader that these letters are all unsolicited letters sent to Orange as a result of Orange’s massive undertaking of writing the Orange Papers. These letters are not written by Orange Papers Forum members.

    ***********************************************************

    Letter # 3

    Date: Sat, December XX, XXXX 9:57
    From: “Anonymous

    Hi Orange,

    Hope you don’t mind me writing to you so often. Please don’t worry at all about writing back. I know you get many, many letters. I am in the early stages of recovery from the AA cult and I find it very helpful to write to you. As I read more of your articles I am reminded of the shear stupidity of AA and the mind boggling arrogance of sponsors.

    I only had one sponsor in the 8 years of my AA experience. He lasted the first two years. And he dumped me! Why? Well I can only guess. I discovered that he had DOZENS of sponsees! All of which gave him money and gifts, except me (I think my guess as to why he dumped me is a pretty good one). He was also screwing every female he could get his hands on. It was awful to see young women coming in, lonely, tired, seeking love and warmth and support, used and abused to gratify this excuse for a man; then discarded and dumped, only to go back out drinking, disillusioned.

    And what cuts me up inside and makes cry even right now, is that many years ago one of his sponsees told me that there was something wrong with this bastard and AA. That young man, along with at least two others he sponsored committed suicide.

    I just dismissed him. If I could say something to him now I’d say, ‘I’m sorry. I am so sorry for not believing you.’ At his funeral we, AA crackpots, stood around his grave and said the serenity prayer. The only sane person in that circle was in a grave. How lonely must have been his last days. Knowing the truth of AA, a truth he could not deny. He had no friends, only AA ‘friends’ and therefore his truth was denied by everyone in his world. How lonely must that be?

    I only just escaped with my life. I tried to hang myself. Luckily I have good upper body strength and pulled myself back up in the attic, to safety. I also took an overdose and awoke in a hospital pissed off that I was still alive.

    I was so close to death and continued to listen to the backward ‘logic’ of my so-called sponsor. Oh Orange it is good to be free. In the Big Book it talks of everyone being in a disaster and coming together in AA to freedom and safety. Well I was in a disaster. And it was AA. I just feel baffled sometimes. How could I have been taken in for so long! Why did I keep suppressing the alarm bells in my head!

    But I am not so hard on myself. I was desperate for love and warmth. I grew up with little or no love, and thought AA could give me the affection I craved.

    Also while in AA I covered my body with tattoos. I was denying my pain and numb. I see now that it manifested itself in tattoos, skulls, death, knives. My body is destroyed, but that’s OK. My mind isn’t. I still meet AA members. (I’m only out of AA four months, but the brainwashed crap in my head has been slowly broken down over the last two years.) I will chat with those on the outskirts. I try not to be too anti-AA to them. I don’t wish to hurt them. But I will be honest. As for those members in the inner circle… these I detest. When they say hello I make it a must that I look into their eyes and grin at them: ‘Hard look pal, ye nearly had me, not quite. Hey guess what I am still sober. Fuck you!’

    Thanks Orange for letting me get this off my chest. You are a good man.

    I believe history will say that Agent Orange was the beginning of the end for Steppism.

    I will be writing to locally elected councellers (politicians) on many of the matters you have discussed. I’m going to play my part.

    Kindest Regards,
    Anonymous

    Letter #4

    Date: Fri, March 17, 2006 12:22
    From: “anonymous.”
    Subject: Curious

    The death toll while I was in AA for six years, in Reno, Nevada:

    • Total of five unintentional overdoses, that I knew about. Two were heroin, the others were sleeping pills, pain pills, or vallium.

    • Total of seven overt suicides of people that attended meetings, my first two years of sobriety. The first four, they intentionally took drugs and alcohol for the purpose of ending their life. One shot himself in the head, the other hung himself, because they continued to get in debt, after sobriety, because of their gambling. The last (I have forgotten his name) put the hose in the exhaust and put it into the back window of his truck. Had no drugs or alcohol from the time he started going to meetings, went to meetings on a regular basis. Unfortunately, he got lonely and depressed. None of the women in AA or NA would have any thing to do with him. These women prefered the hip slick and cool pontificator that was not really sober, but fit in with their image of the ideal man.

    • The above does not even count the deaths that we never heard about.

    ***********************************************************

    These blogs on AA & suicide are meant to show a link between the AA cult and some of the suicides of AA members. The intent is not to suggest that AANY, the AA Fellowship or any single AA group or member is legally reponsible for an individual’s suicide. Often times suicide is a decision made individually.

    One purpose of these continuing blogs is to educate readers of the negative aspects of the teachings of the dangerous cult known as Alcoholics Anonymous.

    Research indicates that depression is the #1 cause of suicide. Other research shows most alcohol abusers are depressed people. Membership in AA can increase a person’s depression. I leave it to the reader to reach their own conclusion.

    These two letters, #’s 3 & 4, discuss some disturbing aspects of AA, other than suicide. In fact, one item discussed is the fact that AA members have on occasion “crashed” funerals to practice their cult chantings and religion. This topic was discussed in two separate blogs yesterday. Of course it’s (AA) a cult!

    Another aspect in the above letters is that of 13 stepping. This is a practice in AA where an existing AA member will make sexual advances to the newcomer to AA. This newcomer often times is completely unaware of the cult tactics of AA.

    In fact, 13 stepping in AA seems to be condoned by the male members of AA. Bragging rights among the male members, a “notch” to put on their sacred Big Book so to speak. One only needs to look to the original 13 stepper, Bill W. And in Bill W’s footsteps there are the likes of Clany I (the Pacific Group) and Mike Q (the Midtown Group).

    How many women in AA have been the victim of this condoned behavior in AA? Tens? Hundreds? Thousands?

    Does membership in the cult known as Alcoholics Anonymous increase the suicide rate among alcohol abusers?

    ɸɸɸɸɸɸɸɸɸɸɸɸɸɸɸɸɸɸɸɸɸɸɸɸɸɸɸɸɸɸɸɸɸɸɸɸ

    AA is killing people (by suicide) with its “treatment” program of “spirituality”. AA is simply a hokey religion folks.

    NEWSFLASH!!

    AA is not a treatment program. AA offers no mental therapy. AA offers no psychiatric therapy. AA offers no emotional therapy.

    What does AA offer? ———supposed miracles performed by god.

    Example #1

    This unfortunate suicide is an indication of several of the many problems that AA has. This example highlights three problem areas within AA. 1) AA is ineffective as a substance abuse “treatment” program. 2) AA members (Sponsors) should not be giving advice in the areas of medical/psychiatric arenas and 3) the public’s misperception that AA somehow works in treatment of substance abuse.

    This victim of AA had been in and out of the hokey religious “treatment” program for decades. Why? Because AA is ineffective in treating substance abusers.

    This victim of AA had a sponsor. This sponsor was simply another AA member. This sponsor had no training in medicine or psychiatry. In spite of no training in substance abuse treatment, in spite of medical education, in spite of no psychiatric training, this AA sponsor felt he had “valuable” advice to give, and gave it. The victim had a long history of mental disorder, What the fuck was this AA sponsor thinking?

    This victim’s sister relied on the “suggestion” from the AA sponsor. Why? Because through AA’s marketing of their “treatment” program the unsuspecting public has been duped into believing the AA dogma that their way works.

    “In a deposition, Deming said the sponsor assured her that Achen would be safe where he was, that he would detox and that she wouldn’t have to worry about him.”
    http://www.newsreview.com/sacramento/preventable-death/content?oid=15280

    Letter #5

    Date Fri, October 1, 2004 7:00 am
    Subject PERMISSION NEEDED
    Hi,
    I have included a letter below that needs your permission to send, as I not only mention you, but actually have the balls to suggest that 48 Hours CONTACT you. I need your permission, obviously, before I do this. Please reply with your thoughts/criticisms/applause/permission at the earliest convenience.
    I want to write to CBS’s 48 Hours and request that they do a show exposing AA for what it really is.
    After drafting the letter, I realized that I would be giving CBS links to not only our group here at XXXXX, but to many others as well. I decided I should ask permission of the group members (and I will cc to other groups and site owners mentioned for permission) and wait for feedback before proceeding. Please be free with your thoughts: applause and criticism equally welcomed.
    Following is the entire body of the email minus my personal contact information, which I would include on sending.
    —————————————————————-
    Subject: 48 HOURS Investigate AA and 12 Step — Harm is increasing

    Dear CBS, 48 HOURS team:

    “DALLAS — Authorities on Saturday were trying to figure out why a man shot and killed two people at a Narcotics Anonymous meeting before staging a four-hour standoff with police.” source: http://www.kristv.com/Global/story.asp?S=2203335

    A.A., N.A. and many other 12 step groups are much worse than just “ineffective”, (though a story on that could easily be done) they are downright damaging. There are 3 United States District Courts who have ruled that A.A. is RELIGIOUS and coerced attendance is unconstitutional. Yet thousands of courts across the country continue with the practice of court-ordered A.A. attendance. This is due to lack of information. The courts, the people of the United States, have been duped into perhaps one of the biggest ruses of our time: that Alcoholics Anonymous is a “helpful” and “non-religious” support group for alcoholics. This is a bald faced lie. The truth is, A.A. is a damaging religious cult, who’s effectiveness rate on alcoholism is no greater than no program or support at all, and furthermore has a growing mass of people fleeing it. Why?

    I am the “owner” of only one of many online groups for people who are leaving 12 step groups, especially AA, and seeking help in dealing with the damage that they suffered at the hands of such groups. I am an “escapee” myself, after 17 years in the “rewms” of AA. It has taken a year, to reclaim my own thinking and feeling processes and I’m not fully out of the woods yet. I still struggle, more frequently than I would like, with catching the AA brainwashing and have to consciously stop the chant in my head just to focus on rational thinking. I am not as damaged as others I have talked to. One gal in my group had a complete breakdown, delusions and all, with no chemicals of any kind in her body, after 3 or more days of being forced to stay up with no sleep by 12 steppers. I myself, have heard more than a handful of stories of people I KNEW in AA over the last 17 years, who, on the advice of their sponsor, stopped taking medication and as a result committed suicide because their depression was untreated. A.A.er’s hardly blink at this: they claim the person simply was not working the steps right. This smacks of the horror stories we sometimes hear of parents belonging to a religious sect that doesn’t believe in medication refusing medical treatment for their dying child. However, most of those belong to an identifiable religion. A.A. claims it is not religious and the majority of Americans, A.A. attendees and non- attendees believe it. The reason for this is simply that the facts about A.A. have not been disseminated by the press. I believe no other news show could do as excellent a job of informing America about this danger than 48 HOURS. Simply put, 48 HOURS was created to cover such things.

    There are many groups for people fleeing AA and it’s sister groups, and many stories like the above.

    81% are gone (19% remain) after 1 month;
    90% are gone (10% remain) after 3 months,
    93% are gone (7% remain) after 6 months,
    and 95% are gone (5% remain) at the end of one year.

    End of letter

    ɸɸɸɸɸɸɸɸɸɸɸɸɸɸɸɸɸɸɸɸɸɸɸɸɸɸɸɸɸɸɸɸɸɸɸɸ

    So not only might the unsuspecting newcomer to AA end up sitting next to a violent criminal or sexual predator, the newcomer most likely will not receive any type of support in the nature of emotional support, medical support or mental support because AA is not a treatment program for substance abusers.

    AA is simply a hokey religious cult that offers supposed miracles performed by god to end substance abuse.

    Run newcomer, run as fast a you can, from the culty, hokey religion of AA!

    ɸɸɸɸɸɸɸɸɸɸɸɸɸɸɸɸɸɸɸɸɸɸɸɸɸɸɸɸɸɸɸɸɸɸɸɸ

    Who is in AA with you?..and..Carefully pick your sponsor.

    Another convicted rapist sentenced to AA
    http://www.medhelp.org/user_journals/show/351529/Another-convicted-rapis

    Man sentenced for rape committed in 1984
    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17634482/ns/health-mental_health/t/man-sente

    Women who pleaded insanity set free
    http://news.usti.net/home/news/cn/?/world.law/1/wed/be/Uus-woodry.Rwzx_F

    Girl kept detailed diary of rapes by mother’s boyfriend
    http://www.gmanetwork.com/news/story/75915/news/world/girl-kept-detailed

    Hershey man chooses probation
    http://www.northplattebulletin.com/index.asp?show=news&action=readStory&…

    An ex-con enrolled in the state’s intensive supervision program (ISP) who was arrested March 7 on drug and weapons charges
    http://www.nj.com/cumberland/index.ssf/2012/03/officer_visited_vineland_

    Police: Man pulled gun at church AA meeting, charged with assault
    http://www.wfmz.com/news/news-regional-southeasternpa/Police-Man-pulled-

    Lewiston man set to plead guilty to manslaughter in clock death
    http://www.sunjournal.com/news/lewiston-auburn/2012/05/23/lewiston-man-s

    Red flags missed
    http://www.staradvertiser.com/news/20101107_Red_flags_missed.html?id=106

    2-year probation sentence for Mark Dickenson in menacing case
    http://www.journal-advocate.com/sterling-local_news/ci_20587520/2-year-p

    Wilker sentenced to 8 years
    http://www.westbranchtimes.com/article.php?id=8135

    Woodbury Man Given 20 Days In Jail For Threatening to Kill Local Restaurant Manager
    http://woodbury.patch.com/articles/woodbury-man-given-20-days-in-jail-fo

    Man indicted for stealing from senior he met at support group
    http://www.sanduskyregister.com/port-clinton/news/2012/jan/20/man-indict

    ‘Risky’ child rapist released from jail
    http://www.mako.org.au/dexter_williams.html

    Two dramatic U-turns for John Kalisz, accused in deadly Hernando County shooting rampage
    http://www.tampabay.com/news/publicsafety/crime/two-dramatic-u-turns-for

    Woman Shot in the Head After Fight Spills Out of AA Meeting
    http://www.thefix.com/content/woman-shot-head-after-fight-breaks-out-aa-

    ‘Thelma & Louise’ suspect was poster child to Alcoholics Anonymous group
    http://www.nydailynews.com/news/crime/thelma-louise-suspect-poster-child

    Rapist Sentenced to 65-Year Term for Assaults on 17 Victims
    http://articles.latimes.com/1986-07-26/news/mn-47_1_serial-rapes

    Man sentenced to life for ’07 rape, murder
    http://www.heraldsun.com/view/full_story/6722292/article-Man-sentenced-t

    ɸɸɸɸɸɸɸɸɸɸɸɸɸɸɸɸɸɸɸɸɸɸɸɸɸɸɸɸɸɸɸɸɸɸɸɸ

    For a list of the letters Orange has received on suicide, see >> http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-letters32.html#suicide_list

    Alcoholics Anonymous: MyNotGodHasItCovered®
    http://www.expaa.org/

    NOT AA:
    Rational Recovery, SOS, HAMS, SMART,

  11. AA World Services has been aware of this suicide problem all along. Yet even though they admit the result has been in many AA members committing suicide after being told to not take their meds, they continue to allow Sponsors, AA members and Group leaders to continue this deadly practice. AA World Services has no mechanism in place to handle this problem, other than to admit there is a problem.

    For those that stop their meds yet thankfully do not take their lives, still have had to endure depression, suicidal ideation, manic episodes, addiction and getting in trouble with the law. AA needs to be held responsible and be forced to put in place guidlelines to prohibit this from continuing.

      • AA NA is not telling the truth about the program and medication, I know of one man that killed hisself because of the attitudes and the cult like system that AA had.

      • I heard over the years by a few men say about new comers “Get them on there backs before they get on there feet” This is there thinking and motto.

    • Society is in denial when it believes that the drug/alcohol problem is cured by AA. We have on our hands a much uglier, more problematic religion than all those that have gone before it. AA was created by a man who wanted to use others to feel ok about himself. It is time that we in these United States break free of his bullshit.

      • What I cannot believe is how taboo it is to speak in negative terms about AA. Doctors save lives, policeman save lives but people are certainly critical of different doctors, police departments. Nobody is really above reproach.

        It looks like the people are starting to finally be heard that want to express their disdain for AA, but not without taking allot of backlash for it. Steppers go crazy when you tell the truth about their cult.

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