ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS VOTES NO TO PROTECT MEMBERS FROM PREDATORS

Here is a leaked internal AA memo that AA board member Paul Cleary initiated to address the ever increasing problem of predators within Alcoholics Anonymous. He was very concerned about minors being sexually abused by AA members. But at the end of the day as you will see reading the entire internal memo, AA voted NO to do anything to protect those they serve. This is shameful and criminal that these abuses are allowed to continue without the government and the Insurance companies mandating AA to comply with standard safety measures that any respectable organization has. Send this to people you know who can make a difference such as child advocacy groups, women against violence groups, your church, congressmen, senators and governors. Please get the word out to stop the predators in AA.

 PREDATORS IN AA

UNFORTUNATELY COMPLAINTS HAVE BEEN RECEIVED ABOUT GROUPS OF MEMBERS AND INDIVIDUAL MEMBERS WHO ARE INVOLVED IN THE FOLLOWING BEHAVIORS TOWARD OTHER MEMBERS AND OTHER GROUPS IN THE FELLOWSHIP. ACTUAL OR IMPLIED VIOLENCE, BULLYING, INTIMIDATION, STALKING,THREATENING BEHAVIOR, VERBAL, EMOTIONAL, AND SEXUAL ABUSE.

SOME OUTSIDE AGENCIES ARE UNWILLING TO REFER THEIR CLIENTS TO US BECAUSE THEY ARE BEING TOLD BY OTHER CLIENTS OF WHAT’S HAPPENING IN REGARD TO SEXUAL ABUSE IN AA.

THERE IS CONFUSION ABOUT TAKING LEGAL ACTION AGAINST PERPETRATORS BECAUSE THE VICTIMS THINK THEY WILL BE BREAKING ANONYMITY, FEAR RETRIBUTION AND THAT THEY WON’T BE BELIEVED.

BECAUSE THE VICTIMS OF THESE BEHAVIORS ARE THE WEAK AND VULNERABLE, WE WOULD LIKE GUIDELINES THAT CLEARLY OUTLINE AND DEFINE WHAT ACTIONS THE VICTIMS OF THESE ABUSES ARE ABLE TO TAKE, NOT JUST THE GROUP CONSCIENCE, BUT ALSO THEIR RIGHTS WITHIN THE LAW. ALTHOUGH WE DO NOT LIKE TO BE INVOLVED IN THE CONTROVERSY THESE ACTIONS MAY INITIATE,  THE PROBLEM HAS BECOME SUCH THAT WE NEED TO TAKE STEPS IMMEDIATELY TO CURB, OR IF POSSIBLE ERADICATE THESE BEHAVIORS FROM OUR FELLOWSHIP.

FOR A HOST OF MORAL, ETHICAL AND LEGAL REASONS, IT IS TIME FOR THE GENERAL SERVICE BOARD TO PROVIDE LEADERSHIP IN ADDRESSING THE ISSUE OF CHILD SEXUAL ABUSE IN AA

PAUL E. CLEARY    GENERAL SERVICE TRUSTEE

GENERAL SERVICE BOARD OF ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS INC.

COMPLETE INTERNAL AA MEMO ABOUT PREDATORS IN AA-

http://stinkin-thinkin.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/ATTACHMENT_TO_TOPIC_002-PREDATORS.doc.pdf

107 thoughts on “ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS VOTES NO TO PROTECT MEMBERS FROM PREDATORS

  1. Newsflash:
    Women get raped everywhere. Wherever there are men, women get raped: in the military, in the police force, in prison, in the church, in the office. Why would a bunch of drunks be any different or better?

    • I was in coma for a couple of months. It was long coming back. I was picked up by man with history of doing this to vulnerable woman in aa. I had no ability to take care of self. I had guardian. I had learn to walk and talk again. I was so inept he made me think we were together. He showed up at hospital after family left. As I came out and realized what was going on I was mortified. No one at aa stopped him or said it’s wrong. I feel raped. It’s so disgusting to think I was with this person. I go to group with the elder statesmen now. They would never stand by whille a predator went after woman.

  2. I have some remarkable new information.
    First, I am in my twenties, am athletic, and told I am incredibly handsome. So, women want to go to bed with me. I guess there are worse lots in life, so I best not complain.
    However, within AA, there are women in their 40’s who are being uncomfortably aggressive in their advances toward me. These promiscuous trollops won’t take “no” for an answer! Like posted in this site, some may be dangerous convicted felons.
    Then I woke up. There are women who are NOT in AA, who are equally demanding and selfish!
    But there is one thing they all have in common. They all drive Japanese vehicles.
    Yes, without exception, none of these morally corrupt women drive what is conventionally known to be an American car.
    Honda and Toyota assume no responsibility for this atrocity. In fact, they even have minute long television shows where they unashamedly promote their company’s products as superior!
    I carried groceries for a middle aged female out of the store to her Toyota, and realized I could be in the company of a convicted felon! There is no advisory posted on the trunk lid of her car, warning me of the potential danger I may be in.
    So, following the same logic used on this site, I am convinced that all women who drive Japanese cars are potential rapists and murderers.
    There are people who cannot comprehend this, but, as you say, I was once indoctrinated by “them” (those who think differently than us smart people), and am now free.
    You anti-steppers are obviously acutely addicted to this website (I can’t imagine the hours of valuable living time you have squandered here) Undoubtedly it will take time for you to see the light, and lose your ‘indoctrination’, if ever you do.

  3. Wow I appreciate this website. I am a member of AA. I am slightly annoyed at what goes on at the clubhouse of my home-group. I have ten years sober and have not been going to allot of meetings, I did attend one today and I am reminded of why I don’t go. But anyway there are a host of “traditions” and I don’t mean the 12 traditions that pass as Big Book truth AA at the club. By traditions I mean little sick dysfunctional status quos that pass from year to year as supposedly “what emotional sobriety is.” I don’t run around getting annoyed at people for being human nobody is perfect my god. No it’s when hoards of people follow suite with the same dysfunction that I am compelled to write about it on my website. That is, in between my article’s about solutions etc. Thanks for the website we have some serious cult bs going on at the Triangle Club in Gainesville, Fl but I have not been privy to any serious damage other than never seeing newbies again. And they are not just sending court ordered to our group, they are also sending the medical students into our meetings to observe us. Insane. Who is going to share from their heart once seven or more future nurses and doctors introduce themselves as non-alcoholic students sent to AA to learn? And predators? I wouldn’t bring my daughter to those rooms. Absolutely not. The worst is the 12:30 meeting of which I am a member “New Life Group” I have not been to a meeting there in probably 6 mos and I am the Chairman-el-presidenta. I got AA burn-out bad after 9 years of service hot and heavy. My group has not had a business meeting in just as long. Don’t worry I had great therapy and thank God for it, otherwise I wouldn’t have the self-esteem to speak out against the BS. And talk about heads in the sand. Go to a Facebook group and mildly mention some of the cult bs that needs correcting. People call me AA hater, and cuss me out, call me names but I get it. I understand they have attached their identity to a white washed version of AA in which all is fluffy white spiritual pink and everlasting clouds. The other unwritten rule…”AA is always perfect” tradition 13.

    • First of all Theirs Good and Bad in these rooms and i do NOT agree with everything and if i feel to share why then i will and NO one will Intimidate and stop me from Sharing, These rooms at times seem very cultish if it isn’t their way they look down on those who go against the grain. If you not doing it their way your NOT doing the steps, I agree and disagree as for these programs are very needed and theirs a lot of positive to their BUT their a lot of negatives…They do save lives which i am very grateful and always will be in going me a place to go where many share the same issues, BUT then their are those who are so self absorbed within their own selfs and become so robotic not seeing what really goes on in these rooms and have this saying everyone is welcomed, I disagree NOT everyone especially Child molesters, they do NOT get well and need to go somewhere else for their problems, because many feel safe with these rooms and are lurking at our children while we are trying to get well.personally i confronted it like it or not as a single dad who came into the rooms caring a 8 1/2 month old daughter in my arms, and over the years of coming to meetings 3/4 a day if needed, and had observed first hand the BS and denial and turning their backs on the safety of the rooms,I would speak about people need to be aware and molesters especially should NOT be allowed in the rooms, well their were people who would whisper and others tell be i was character assassinating people, lol eventually the person i was running off a few weeks later was in the news arrested for 8 counts of child molestation and 2/3 kids were in the program, Hummm I rest my case, Just maybe if people didn’t turn a blind eye and defending them and their right to be in the rooms because anyone can join (BS) just maybe they children could of been saved, But the attitudes and trusting people you think you know but really don’t is absurd, So after ten years i burned out from the negativity, people not walking their talk, put down those who don’t do god saying their not doing the program aka:steps because of this i started one on one counseling outside of the rooms which was great, and NO matter who says what, I am very grateful for the rooms and stop in time to time and have 24 3/4 years Clean and Sober….What works for one may not work for another but no matter how you get their to a place better then where you came from and have stayed positive and honest with one self and others and help others when they are in need caring the message isn’t this what its all about Finding your way, living life on lifes own terms and a better peace within one self ? PeaceOut

    • I went to the AA clubhouse I. Gainesville Florida for two years and was harassed constantly. I was raped by an old timer there and I was not the only newcomer he preyed on. And others tried. They’d tell me how special I was and try to “counsel” me then invite me over. It’s bad at that club house. Plus one of the elected leaders there was a registered sex offender a few years ago. Could it be any more clear? I have spoken out about it and all ppl have done is shamed me and denied it. I’m a good person and I was in a really bad place at the time and really vulnerable just like the other newcomer girls there who have disappeared very quickly And wound up needing more help than before.

  4. Pingback: Spiritual Abuse and Spiritual Bullies in Alcoholics Anonymous? | A.A.R.M.E.D. with Facts

  5. Been around AA/NA since 1999. I’m 34 and have this seen and heard almost all of it. Being in AA for 15 plus years I definitely understand criticisms of the program. Yet at its core AA really is nothing more than nothing. Yes there are occasionally meetings and some lackluster districts and hierarchy at group, district, regional and New York level but no one runs AA, there is no “clergy”. There are no real leaders- or at least there shouldn’t be- that is why it’s so hard to change AA or approach it as if it were any other organization. It’s not. It’s seriously just some pretty mundane “steps” written by a rather weird dead guy. People take his simple stream of consciousness writing and will literally analyze it for their whole life to gleam deep insights about “life”. It is very silly. Still- I agree with three main components or “steps” of AA- examining your resentment and bitterness by viewing your part, making direct amends within reason when it will clearly help someone recover from your misconduct and helping others with serious problems involving dope/booze if they want it. Meetings can be helpful as meetings in any organization of like minded people can be a bonding tool. So of course I’m not against protecting people from predators but the problem is who would enforce it and how? Because I can tell you what will happen: a man legitimately likes a woman and a woman likes him in return- nothing wrong with that though your opinion may be they don’t get together. Yet another man #2 at this AA meeting also likes woman. Well, next thing you know man #2 is now going out of his way to convince others and the police that man #1 (who woman likes) is “preying” on woman and on and on and on and on this stuff goes. You see, matters of the prurient interest are the stuff of massive misunderstanding, fierce resentments and bitter hearts. It is WAY too easy for these people who are barely off dope to use society’s current obsession with stopping “predators” to their twisted advantage. I’ve seen all of this. Men accuse men of being predators because they see such men get laid by willing attractive women and so instead of just accepting he isn’t and that’s life this loser will rail to everyone the lucky guy is a predator. I fear that, like everything else in America, twisted maniacs will accuse those they dislike of being perverts who sexually harass women. And women also commit heinous acts behind the protection of the ideology of sexual predator victimhood. Women claim men raped them when in fact they’re just upset they’re now considered a slut and want to go from slut to heroic victim in one sentence. Again, I’m not condoning being a rapist predator obviously but the REALITY here is very complex. Often two people who are now devoid of substances immediately look to sex to fill the void. Problem is two maniacs are now using each other like a drug where problems are BOUND to happen. Yet this does NOT mean the man is a predator. I fear implementing weird, ambiguous, debatable, strange sex rules will actually have the perverse effect of mostly witch hunting by already deranged maniacs. And, at the end of the day, as long as consent is there and it’s not by someone the other knows to be substantially incapacitated, then people, no matter how nuts, have the right to make poor sexual decisions. I also fear men, who admittedly tend to seek sex out more and more aggressively, will be accused of heinous acts simply because they’re horny. AA is not a government agency. Men and women have the right to make an advance (within the law) and either get accepted or rejected. This idea that all newly sober men must takes vows of chastity and never dare ask a woman out is absurd and punishes men. I know we are talking about predation but it is very easy to accuse someone of being a pervert simply because they look strange or act weird.

    Finally, I fear women are getting a pass here. I’ve known scores of AA women over the years and unfortunately many of them cause serious sexual harm on a routine basis. For some reason in American society deviant female sexual behavior is condoned and laughed at while men are arrested and sentenced to prison so I worry about unfair application of any rules designed to weed out and punish “predatory” behavior. Will women also be punished? Many AA groups are extremely Puritan in nature and some are liberal. Being liberal doesn’t mean your a predator except maybe to devout Religious maniacs. I was at an AA meeting once and a female from our group basically whined incessantly that a man dared call her and ask her out. It was so obviously attention seeking that it reeked of self-centered obsession. The guy could’ve been any guy and she was a woman grown. I would never do something like that but the guy that “dared” asked her out was hardly a “predator”. Our Supreme Court has long known that in living this life some nuisance and annoyance is to be expected and yes, that means from time to time a woman will-alas- have to deal with telling a man she’s not interested- the poor lass. Yet let a woman be shown no interest by men and let her friend get attention and all of the sudden SHE’S calling the men. It’s all laughable really- long as you don’t have a maniacal politically correct moron witch hunting. It always sounds good to say stuff like “let’s stop sexual predators” or “stop child abuse” but when you see a father go to prison after being convicted for daring to spank his two year old son and he now has a felony or when the guy is wrongly accused of rape but the accuser who admitted lying is simply let go with nary a slap on the wrist lest “other potential victims be afraid” (total injustice obviously as only liers would be afraid to falsely accuse) you understand not all politically correct ideas are good at all.

    • A few women with an agenda bullied a motion through our last business mtg which added a paragraph long ‘safety statement’ to our format. No mention was made of this in the month leading up to that business mtg, so attendance wasn’t especially heavy. I am appalled at this statement, which reads: ‘In keeping with Tradition 1 E******* S****** does not tolerate unsafe or predatory behavior. Examples of this type of behavior are sexually inappropriate references, innuendos or harassment of any kind. We want you to feel safe here, please talk with the secretary, your sponsor or trusted friend if you do not feel safe. We take this seriously and will address this immediately. Safety, in order for our members to recover, is our top priority’.
      {punctuation posted as it was originally written}

      What is this supposed to do? Who is the arbiter of ‘harassment’, ‘innuendos’, or what’s an ‘inappropriate reference’? Maybe we should have a trigger warning, too?

      I am sick to death of the popular victim mentality that’s all the rage today. The irony of this is that the person who brought the motion to the group met her husband in AA many years ago. I met my boyfriend in AA. This type of morality monitoring has no place in 12 step meetings, in my opinion. AA World Service has stated that this is an outside issue, but it has also stated that each group should deal with it however it seems fit. I haven’t been to my home group in a month. We just had another business mtg today, and, with the elections and reports, we had no time to deal with this statement. Almost no one like it as written, but it will continue to be read at the beginning of every mtg, where it will give the impression that our healthy, 6am group is some cesspool of lecherous men, preying on newcomers (or women with time who can’t set a healthy boundary, if what I’ve heard personally is any indication).

      People are responsible for themselves. We already address ‘predatory’ behavior, face-to-face, if need be…and sometimes, when people just want to get judgmental. This whole thing sickens me.

      • Really? Where did this take place? Sounds like a great idea for AA to start warning people about the potential hazards of attending 12 step meetings. I do not understand why you have a problem with it.

        The facts are AA and NA do have a big problem with predatory behavior in and out of the meetings. Why continue to turn a blind eye?

        Just because someone met their husband at a 12 step meeting does not mean it happened under a predatory situation. The facts still remain though that women and men are preyed upon by their own members.

        It is hardly an outside issue when it an obvious inside issue. Why does AA and NA preach taking responsibility but then as a group or as an organization refuse to any responsibility for crimes against those they serve? Is that not hypocrisy at it’s finest?

      • The city i lived in had three predatory WOMEN. Every time a new guy with money came in – one on them would take over his life and his bank account. Two of them lost their businesses because they were convinced to hire family members of these con artists.

        It is appropriate to have the warning. And btw…. i am a woman.

        librarian

  6. Have spent way too long in the program and am phasing it out of my life. One last thing is a 2-year commitment at the district level that I was too polite to say no to and would rather just serve out the last 6 months of it and leave quietly after that than create a big spectacle of it. Anyway, the issue of safety in the rooms has become a talking point at our district meetings. Unfortunately, our “free” program is too in love with those “workshops and assemblies” that require those “called into service” to attend, which requires expenses for gas, lodging, and food. No matter whether that comes out of their pockets or from group donations, it is still donations that members are guilted into giving. As such, it was motioned that we as a district send a letter of concern–with suggestions for GSO to create a safety policy as soon as possible–to the Area in order to vote on whether or not to send that further up the chain and hopefully eventually to the central offices. Such a process, if the motion even carries past the district level, can take up to two years and involves–in my specific circumstances–sending someone from central MN four hours north along the Canadian border for a spring assembly, and next to a zonal forum somewhere in Washington, and then from there to New York–again, this is only if the motion passes at each of those levels. So, despite the urgency of the matter, the “proper procedure” allows us to squander funds on lawyers for GSO while they do nothing because they supposedly have to wait for a motion to come to them. My suggestion, as an alternative, was for individual groups (supposedly the most powerful top of the “upside down triangle” power structure) to draft their own letters to send straight to GSO. Our particular clubhouse has almost 50 different groups, each of whom could sign a form letter and deluge GSO with letters all expressing the same concerns about safety and the need for a policy change. This was quickly shot down. In the middle of my suggestion, where I got to the statement “individual groups could send a letter,” people immediately started shaking their head and correcting me; those letters would have no power, the voice of the individual groups would mean nothing, and we would need to “power of the Area” (exact words) in order for our suggestions/concerns to mean anything to GSO. Either I am wrong or they are wrong. If they are wrong, it is because they are so wrapped up in their own importance because of their position. Or if I am wrong, it is because the political process and structure of AA does not in reality grant power to the group and is really a system that tries to block change from happening. Either way, it is ridiculous.

    • Hi, my name is Pete and I’ve been happily sober for 30 years. In my area of Virginia, we have been deluged with court-ordered referrals at our weekly AA meeting. Our group simply refuses to sign slips for these individuals. And for those afraid of 13th step complications–it takes two to tango!

      • So I guess those people just go to another nearby AA meeting to get court slips signed. Thanks for the info how you are being deluged with court mandates! This is happening across the country with most meetings accepting them with open arms putting their members at risk.

        As far as 13 stepping it does not take 2 for that to happen. Where do you get that idea? It takes one man or woman to do this, just like sexual abuse.

        Do you feel AA has no responsibility to make the rooms safer from members being sexually harassed and abused? Many that come there have already been traumatized, and do not need to be re-traumatized by 12 step members.

        • Thank you for noting that it does not take two to tango! That is preposterous and exactly what I have come to expect from “programmed” sick people in AA. It is lunacy that even the women in the groups cover for the predators by stating “principles over personalities” or “love and tolerance is our code”. I have heard that with my own ears from women with 20-30 years in AA! What “principles” would those be? Love for whom? Certainly not the women in the group. The whole organization is loaded with angry, crazy people who engage in victim-blaming…the same as our courts engage upon. I regret my every dollar and moment in that program. No one I have discussed this matter with who is in AA uses common sense as they are vested in protecting their fellowship…or “sick buddies”. I used to manage 14 men for an engineering firm and never was I hit on like I was in AA. It is a very incestuous group. AA has become dangerous for women. I should have stuck with my first gut instinct…it is a religious cult.

            • I’ve been sexually harassed and touched by one guy ( I’m not special) he does it to most big chested women or newcomers for 8 years I’ve changed groups and he’s followed me. It is degrading, belittling and undermines sobriety.

              He’s 82. So the other group ” servants” didn’t do anything no matter how many people were run off

              It’s horrifying

              I’ve been raped in past and this dug up many nasty memories that I considered drink or die this week

              And when I obliquely brought up to elders I was yelled at for how I brought it up, not the fact he admitted it in open meeting! Assault is criminal, yet I too didn’t want break tradition by bringing cops there

              Btw verbal isn’t criminal, touching is

              • How are you breaking tradition by involving the police? There is no tradition that states ‘don’t call the police’. However, There are a lot of criminals in the doors who tell you not to because they want to make sure they have a safe environment for continuing to engage in their criminal activity. That is fancy for – they want to stop the easy marks they find in the meeting from calling the police.

                Librarian

      • The 13th Step is when an older member preys on a new vulnerable member. You know exactly what we are talking about.

        No one is ever that vulnerable again in their lives. They are told to trust us, hold our hands an pray, “let us love you till you can love yourself”….What Horsesh*t!

      • RIGHT”. IT TAKES TO TO TANGO”. BUT THOSE WHO ARE NOT ASKING FOR”.AN CON OTHERS PRETEND TO HELP THEM”. A WARNING TO REPORT ANY UNWELCOME INVITATIONS OR ADVANCES”.TO AA NEW PERSON ”.IN THE CLOSE MEETING ”. OR EXPECT SOME PEOPLE TO GO TO POLICE”. HENCE A.A. NAME OUGHT NEVER BE DROWN IN PUBLIC CONTROVERSY”.? AA IS WAY TO GOOD FOR MILLIONS TO IGNORE”.REPORT ANY AGAINST IU TO A GROUP CONCIENCE ”?

  7. Hi,

    My name is Cecilia and I’m a reporter with VICE. I’m reporting a story about sexual assault in AA and how AA’s philosophy can leave women powerless to report or address their assault.

    I’m hoping to speak with some members of your community about their experiences with the “13th Step.” I’m also interested in people’s opinions on what AA can do to hold people accountable for their egregious actions in the AA community.

    My e-mail is cdanasta [AT] gmail [DOT] com. Thanks so much.

    Best,
    Cecilia

    • @Cecilia: Sorry if you find some of us to be hesitant to discuss these subjects with you directly, but there have been others claiming to be with t.v. programs, news shows, etc., with requests similar to yours. And the key word there is “claiming” to be.

      • I contacted Vice news directly and they gave me the thumbs up on Cecilia, and the email provided. I for one love Vice news, it is probably the only real investigative reporting going on period in the USA.

            • …And now that we have seen what can happen to someone who publishes our side of things … you had best be ready for a sh*t storm from the AA side if you ever decide to publish it.

              Librarian

            • I would love to speak with you if the story is not written. I have crazy stories to share about my own experience, additionally, I met another woman who was gang-raped by a local member who is an ex-sheriff. i am the only one to speak up on her behalf…even the women in AA managed to justify it!

              • One thing I have noticed about AA…a TON of narcissists and codependent people are in there who simply do not drink anymore for a period of time. Their behavior doesn’t really change. I would be hard pressed to find a higher concentration of predatory men who talk about “God”, “sobriety” yet walk out the door and behave like animals with women. Feeling perfectly justified. The crazier thing is that the women with “long term sobriety” end up with these narcissistic and abusive men, who continue to be predatory with yet more new-coming women (extra marrital affairs, raping new women) and they protect the MEN! They justify that crap with “love and tolerance is our code”, “principals over personalities”. Love for whom? Certainly not the women! What principals would that behavior embody? I realized after 3 years that I had never been hit on as much, been in as much danger in the outside world than I was when i was in a meeting or hanging out within the ‘fellowship’! I had no idea that so many members of the groups had sex with each other willingly either…and I do mean across the board in every location I went to. If I had wanted that, I could have chosen some sort of crazy sex club where at least that crap is out in the open and one knows what they are walking into. AA just hides and manages to justify their shady behavior. YUCK!

    • The first thing is AAWs could change tge wording in the pamphlet on sponsorship to reflect their pamphlet and position that no member should provide a signature, letters , or keep attendence on another member – as outlined in the resource document smf-177.

      Currently the general membership has no awareness that they are NOT suposed to sign court chits- when members stop signing, the courts will stop sending criminals. This will then reduce the number of incidents.

      • That is a good idea librarian. It seems like AA is on purpose not giving the message down the food chain. If they actually enforced it, it would thin out the meetings and income AA receives from the backs of Alcoholics to pay the fat salaries.

    • As always, I’m learrning from our forefathers what might be useful in our program of Sex Workers Anonymous. I say that because we’ve always had a problem with having to keep certain elements out of our meetings. Whether they be reporters, writers, professors, researchers, law enforcement and/or pimps – and I’ve seen the long term damage that was also done because of not being more rigid in enforcing our 3rd tradition. Because there is a “requirement for membership” that has to be upheld. I also have the right to ask someone to “prove” that to me before allowing them to know where the meeting locations are because people today are fired, evicted, and lose relationships if their “anonymity” is violated. What many of you don’t realize is that there are laws in place that protect confidentiality once someone says they’re trying to get help for drugs and/or alcohol. However, those same laws are still being hammered out when it comes to sex trafficking. While they’re trying to tighten that loop hole I’ve been experiencing a surge in undercover informants looking for dirt on people trying to infiltrate our program. Not just to seek information – but to flush out those who are finding refuge and safety in our program. It’s a constant challenge and as always needs to be up to each group to conscience because one group may have an issue another doesn’t. Thank you for sharing this because it’s helping me understand issues we’re having today in our program.

      • Actually most meetings are “open” meetings, and anyone is allowed to come that is not an addict. Of course AA or NA feels there is no one to twisted or sick to enter the rooms, the undercover people attending do so taking on risks. But this way AA and NA gets exposed!

    • IF NOT ALTER”. ANY THING AA TRADITION TEN”. TO AVOID THAT”. THE NEW COMER IF HARRAS TO REPORT TO A CLOSE AA MEETING GROUP CONCIENCE ”. OLDER MEMBERS WHO KNOW BETTER”., N HONEST IN GROUP”. CALL ATTENCION TO THE COULPRIT ”. IF IS THERE TO WORK ON HIM SELF =HERSELF”. AT THIRD WARNING B OUT”.

      • Ben it is often the old timers who sexually abuse the newcomers. Why should offenders be given 3 chances? At this point AA and NA members can harass people hundreds of times without any backlash from the group.

  8. I may have said this before, but in my opinion this is what it comes down to:

    The AA/GSO says this: http://www.aa.org/pages/en_US/starting-a-new-aa-group
    and then also offers this: http://www.aa.org/assets/en_US/e_group.pdf
    So when they grant one or more individuals the authority to call themselves an “Alcoholics Anonymous” group, they bear some degree of responsibility for what occurs within the group- especially if they have been made aware of it. In other words, if they can ‘giveth,’ they can ‘taketh away.’

    However, they shirk responsibility by claiming any incidents are up to a) Sponsor, and/or b) ‘group conscience.’ The info on group conscience says a group is essentially free to do what they please as long as they do not violate A.A. ‘traditions.’ The catch- the GSO told me both groups and individuals can interpret and apply the traditions however they choose.

    So it’s basically like giving your five-year-old the keys to your car, then say it wasn’t your fault when he wrecks it.

    • So incidents are put on the backs of sponsors? Well I guess the Frys that were Karla and Eric’s Sponsors might not like reading this! Sounds like AA throwing their sponsors under the bus!

  9. If you’ve been in or around AA, you’re probably all too familiar with the ‘blame the victim’ approach- whatever happens to an individual, misguided and/or judgmental idiots find some way to make it the victim’s fault: what the person ‘should have’ or ‘shouldn’t have’ done, ‘what was her part,’ etc.

    A change with local AA should show what the facts really are.
    Years ago, what was probably the most well-known AA group in the area was located in an area that was slightly remote- you were not likely to see anyone other than AA members, or an occasional pedestrian going to a nearby convenience store.
    However- a few years ago, the meeting-place was moved. Its new location: a residential/business area where the general population consists mostly of young adult professionals- a little wealthier, educated, nice young people who only want to live their lives and do not bother anyone.

    Moving the meeting-place resulted in AA members now having the opportunity to cause trouble for ‘civilians’ (non-members). A young guy who complained about the group stated some of the members frequently harassed, even assaulted, and appeared to be threatening sexual assault of his girlfriend and other young women in the nearby apartment buildings. These young folks did not belong to AA- their only connection was they’d been living in the nearby apartment building for a long time.

    So individuals who take the judgmental attitude that people who are involved in AA basically deserve whatever happens to them should take a clear look at this turn of events. While I’m certainly not saying all AA members are like this, I am also not surprised to hear about these ‘behaviors’ from members of this particular group. When they have wrongdoing on their mind, they don’t care who is on the receiving end of it- and the experiences of this guy and the women he knew should make this fact perfectly clear. Young women aren’t safe in their own neighborhood- where they lived and worked for a long time- because this AA group moved in next door.

    • Well Sunkist, that is similar what happened to me. I was never in AA or NA, but because Daytona AA and NA insist on having meetings in our park and playground, us ‘civilians’ get caught in the 12 step mess.

      So it is not as simple as if do not like AA or NA do not go, because they are overflowing into non 12 step members lives in a multitude of ways. Because of the behavior of NA Daytona and AA Daytona this site was born to expose them and AA and NA as a whole. I am proud to say we have reached hundreds of thousands world wide!

      • Glad to hear the traffic is increasing!!!
        I’ve passed the link around (via my lil blog), and most people had no experience with AA/NA, knew nothing about the programs, and ‘heard they were helpful.’ They have facts NOW, though!!!

    • Hi Marchon! Some people wonder why we want safety guidelines and to stop the mandating of violent felons to 12 step meetings.

  10. Australia tried to do something, why not the rest of AA? This is no longer on their website though. Uhmmmm

    Dealing with Predators

    The Central Region’s 2001 Regional Forum took a bold step by holding a special session to discuss the issue of sexual, spiritual, and financial predators at AA meetings. Predators are AA members who take advantage of other members in various ways, such as:
    • sexual harassment
    • sexual attack
    • pressuring members to join a particular religious group
    • borrowing money
    • selling goods for personal gain
    • offering investment schemes
    • theft of group funds.

    While they aren’t at all common, the damage they do can be enormous. The saddest thing about this type of activity is that it is often practised on vulnerable new members who are least able to use their judgement and defend themselves.

    The discussion started with one member giving an account of being assaulted by another member just after she had joined the fellowship. This quickly set the tone for the meeting:- predation is an extremely important matter. It was agreed that the best way to handle the problem is to deal with it quickly at the group level. Several simple but effective methods are available.

    • Talk to other members about it and raise the matter at a group conscience meeting. Take care that you aren’t just passing on rumours. Make sure you have well-established facts to work with.
    • Discuss the problem with the person suspected of preying on other members. Listen to their side of the matter. Let them know the group disapproves of predatory behaviour.
    • Make sure other members stay with the suspected predator whenever he or she is talking to vulnerable new members.
    • Raise your concerns with any of the members you think may be at risk from the predator.
    • Don’t think the matter ends with your group. The predator may leave your group and move to fresh hunting grounds. You may need to warn members in other groups.
    • Barring someone from meetings is an extreme step and should only be taken when other steps have failed.
    • In certain situations you may need to notify the police.
    • Under no circumstances should members resort to vigilante action and use violence to try to solve the problem. This would be totally against the spirit of the Fellowship and could turn the situation into a worse problem.

    It is clear that older members and office holders have a moral obligation to help protect vulnerable members. It’s possible they may even have a legal obligation to do so. Certainly we need to do everything we can to ensure newcomers know an AA meeting is a safe environment.

    Authorised for publication by The General Service Board of Alcoholics Anonymous Australia

  11. There is a great need of QUALIFIED help for people with underlying, untreated mental and emotional disorders. The correctional systems of the world are majorly overwhelmed with repeat offending, high risk individuals who don’t get the REAL help that they need and so the courts release their overflow to AA and N/A in ever-increasing numbers.

    AA and NA have become the catchall for the overcrowded jails and prisons. Statistics show that the courts continue to lighten their guidelines and are releasing ever more dangerous repeat offenders to AA and NA all the time.

    Look up the data for drug courts and how the numbers of those released have majorly increased year-over-year. If you read the news articles in the archives of this website you will understand the reality of the situation.

    Almost every organization today has safety guidelines. AA and NA have some of the most high risk individuals in their group of any organization out there. IT’S TIME FOR AA/NA TO ADAPT SAFETY GUIDELINES TO PROTECT THE VULNERABLE!

  12. There’s something I’ve been wondering about, maybe someone here might know the answer: is there some kind of difference between AA & NA, or were my experiences due to regional differences in general?

    I attended NA meetings first (after nearly being dragged to one); with the exception of a boyfriend/girlfriend team of criminals & one of their sleazy friends, what I found were large bunches of people who were serious about their recovery, cared about their families, and were basically good people. The only negative point was they were afraid to speak up against the criminals.
    When I was ‘invited’ into an AA meeting, though, I found a much different situation: while there were a few good people, it was basically like a big ol’ social circle of creeps, perverts, pigs, and other rejects. And instead of simply being silent about crimes, they backed up criminals because they were all each other’s ‘friends.’

    Has anyone else noticed anything like this?

    • Well I know AA tends to look down their nose at NA because they are addicts vs drunks. With problems in the parks the AA Daytona members blame the problems on Daytona NA members, when they both have been problematic.

  13. Hi, this is Starmom from expaa forum.
    In addition to these creeps targeting and ‘befriending’ women with children, there were a couple of other situations I saw in two different meetingplaces.
    The first one had parties for holidays, people’s clean/sober anniversaries, etc., and everyone who attended was encouraged to ‘bring their families.’ At the time, I’d never even heard the term ‘sex offenders.’ However, by the time I arrived at the second meetingplace, I as familiar with the Sex Offender Registries (and they don’t count creeps who haven’t ‘reoffended’ recently, nor those who were never caught or convicted). Anyway, quite a few of the individuals at the meetingplace looked familiar- and the sex offender registry was where I’d seen them. Quite a few members brought their kids to meetings- ranging from teenagers to toddlers- and the kids would either sit at the table with ‘offenders’ or wander around the room talking to everybody.
    An issue I brought out in my book: when kids of any age see their parents around or associating with ‘steppers,’ they automatically assume they are their parents’ friends and safe people- and obviously this can lead to dangerous situations.

    • Hi Sunkist! Good to see ya.

      That is interesting to hear your story about the meetings with sex offenders and the parties where they were encouraged to bring their families. It validates the concerns I have been trying to address.

      Apart from minors being exposed to 3rd level sex predators in meetings, they are often exposed to a multitude of unsavory characters. Like you said when they see a parent befriending them the child thinks they are okay and has a false sense of safety. Kinda like the parent.

      AA says it is up to each group on how to deal with children. There are no rules. When I search different meeting lists I rarely see a meeting stating no children. Not to many offer childcare. But those that do offer childcare, who is watching the kids? When they are sitting in meetings listening to other peoples horror stories but also they hear their very own Mom or Dad go into detail about their horror stories.

      • Re: the last sentence in your post- *said sarcastically* but that’s what the programs call ‘honesty’…
        Also, while there may be meetings that offer childcare, I never saw any. The one that urged people to bring their families presented it as ‘your family should be supportive of your recovery.’ And the other one seemed to be along the line of ‘if you have no place to leave your kids, bring them along.’

        • In Daytona I do not know of any that have childcare either. It is typically not common. Like you said kids are welcomed to drag the family along to support them, maybe so they can shame them when people decide to leave AA or NA.

          To me it comes across that many peoples children have been harmed by their parents addiction. So many have grown up way to fast. There seems to then be less concern to protect other peoples children from what their own might of suffered. Maybe it is a case of misery loves company. I screwed up my kid on some level, let us help you screw yours up too. Then we will be on equal footing.

  14. AA has been “hacked”. It’s now owned by organized crime, obiously. So many groups are now hacked. Just about everything you can think of, including law enforcement and justice. Welcome to the Brave New World. The worst part is they figured out how to abuse everybody and not have it be illegal! We are living in Hell. Pray for the deliverance of the human race.

    • What are you talking about. Do you have any evidence to support your claims? Or are you just spouting of 20 year old buzz words in attempt to sound legitimate?

    • Well the pedo rings linked to the White House explain why Boy Scout pedophilia was protected. Look up Franklin Scandal and Call Boys in the White House and Paul Bonacci . A CIA director Colby was murdered after participating in interview on Franklin affair and its left on You Tube perhaps as a warning to tattle tails. If congress and others are controlled by way of embarrassing video sub rosa style then think of AA 13 stepping as a side benefit perhaps of the general depravity allowed in AA by the National AA level. They could be leveraged to leave the AA depravity intact because of hidden agendas that came to light. I agree that our country was high jacked esp after Kennedy. Sad I left the on line conspiracy world and it showed up again in Alanon and the like. Yes in Alanon I was hit on by the AAs who join Alanon to try and get human after being brainwashed to emptiness by AA.

  15. Ed, it is not irresponsible journalism to shine a light on legitimate safety concerns. It’s more like doing an honest inventory as you call it. Have you read the internal AA document above?

  16. It always amazed me how cult like AA is. They do so much preaching but don’t follow there own advice. There like zombies to me. When ever I had an issue that was totally valid they would do the simple preaching again. Just disgusting. I have always said AA is for people hiding out from life. They just don’t drink and that is it beside there phony preaching that there sober. They don’t even know what sober is. You know these people are crazy when they read a book over and over and over and over again. Now if that isn’t the definition of insanity than I don’t know what.

    • Eileen- I Always thought when I over heard in the park the repetition at the beginning, middle and end of the meetings would drive me crazy if I was forced to attend!

      It was hard enough to over hear them. But to sit through them all of the time reading the same things seems like torture and extremely boring!

      Also you have oldtimers saying the same horror stories over and over again. Do they not get tired of repeating themselves or do they just like to hear themselves talking?

  17. In response to Ginger’s recent comment….. of course Forest is not saying that all people who make mistakes are dangerous, violent predators but the ones who aren’t get thrown in with the ones who are at these meetings!!

    Most people at AA\NA meetings have no clue who the person sitting next to them is or why they are there. Many of them have been court mandated for some extremely disturbing crimes and are suffering from coexisting mental/emotional disorders.
    These unsupervised meetings attract so many vulnerable people, who have come under the false impression that they would be in a reasonably safe environment. The fact is there aren’t any safety procedures or guidelines established for meetings and many have been victimized, simply to have the abuse covered up by AA/NA loyalists who care more about the image of the organization than the victim!
    THIS IS THE POINT!
    PLEASE READ THE ARTICLE THAT THIS COMMENT IS UNDER.
    THESE ORGANIZATIONS ARE AWARE OF MAJOR PROBLEMS YET REFUSE TO IMPLEMENT EVEN BASIC SAFETY GUIDELINES!!

    BEING WELL AWARE OF THE DANGERS, WHY DO THEY TURN A BLIND EYE IN DENIAL AND CONTINUE TO INVITE VULNERABLE PEOPLE TO UNSAFE, UNSUPERVISED MEETINGS WITHOUT BASIC COMMON SENSE SAFETY GUIDELINES??

    Please visit this site and see how people who authentically care implement safety guidelines!

    http://www.ncsisafe.com/

    Many people at AA/NA meetings have been arrested, REPEATEDLY for all sorts of crimes of sexual abuse and violent crimes!

    Wouldn’t it make sense for them to gather together in an environment with basic safety guidelines in place?

    IF YOU ARE (TRULY UNAWARE) OF THE ABUSES THAT KEEP HAPPENING RELATED TO AA/NA,
    ….. AND HONESTLY CARE ABOUT THE TRUTH AND MEMBER’S SAFETY….,

    SIMPLY READ THROUGH THE MULTITUDE OF NEWS ARTICLES IN THE
    “MONTHLY ARCHIVES”
    You’ll find this section at the top of the homepage on this
    “NATURAL ACCOUNTABILITY”, public awareness site.

      • Well for starters Fred AA and NA can implement safety guidelines like most organizations that work with minors.

        Second they can stop inviting 3rd level sex offenders and violent felons to the same meetings where they also invite vulnerable young women in their teens.

        There is SO MUCH AA and NA could do- they just refuse to take responsibility for their own actions. Looking at their own part in it would be a big step.

        • If you understood the structure of AA, you’d know that is impossible. The groups have autonomy in how they run their meetings. An individual group could in theory ban sex offenders from attending meetings where minors are present but the General Service Conference has NO control over what groups do.

          • That’s the problem with these boards: people just generally have no concept of what enforcing any of these alleged safety laws would look like.

            Example 1:

            At beginning of meeting:
            “Good evening sir? Are you a sexual predator?”

            “Yes. I am a huge sexual predator”

            “Thank you sir. Please go away”
            LOL

            Example 2:

            “Good evening sir. Are you a sexual predator?”

            “What? Get the fuck out of my face”

            “I’m so sorry sir but I’ll need you to fill out this affadvit to attend this anonymous meeting with literally no overlord save this group who really cannot even truly enforce any rule without major disasters”

            • You are ignoring all the well documented cases that have been presented here of violent offenders who have been repeatedly sent to AA instead of being given appropriate jail time. It is these offenders who go on to prey on vulnerable members. Use the ‘archives’ tab on the upper left of this website to read about the.

              In fact, how about you start with the Karla Brada case. He has been sent to AA over FIFTY times by the courts.

              She was a newcomer. He ingratiated himself on her, moved into her townhouse then killed her.

              How does THAT figure into your perspective? Perhaps your attitudes are because you have not educated yourself on the topic?

              Because I could givesmany more examples of horrific member on member abuses who are known criminals.

              Librarian

  18. I see the predation a lot. A new woman walks in sick, confused, and needing help. Lets face the facts. Most groups in my area are predominantly male. The good ole boys club usually thinks nothing of a long timer making the moves on a new woman. There are sick jokes about it. I don’t need a pat on the back for what I do, but I would like some support. I tell new women that they need to get a femele sponsor. That it is an unnoficial AA opinion that one should not enter into a new romantic relationship for about a year. I also tell them that because of who they are today, that they most likely won’t be looking at the same man as appealing, a year from now if they grab onto recovery. I talk about the 4 absolutes too. “Honesty, Purity, Unselfishness, and Love.” This puts me in hot water with most of my AA buddies. I talk about integrity, honesty, and the purpose we all come here for – recovery from alcoholism. I am no boyscout. Enlightenment takes a while for the sick. Those of us who can, surely should protect new members.

    • sickbiker- Good for you! Maybe you will help a few from being preyed on, raped and 13 stepped. AA and NA need more men like you. Many of us have left the rooms for many reasons. Have you considered putting on A Make AA Safer Workshop with a few groups to join in? I created the first one in Southern Cali. as a result a rapist was exposed and is now is jail. I also have great safety literature I could send you and you could bring it and read it and make it your own. Take any part of it and read it before meetings. You can start warning them they could be eventually sued in court for sexual harassment. Its only a matter of time. http://www.leavingaa.com you can see the pamphlet there under tools & support. http://www.stop13stepinaa.wordpress.com

    • Quite frankly most men with common sense and decency tell women to consider staying single. But here’s reality: many women are very accustomed to being taken care of in their life and really hurt many men doing so while they were drinking and using. Yes- men do tend to make more moves but make no mistake- most new AA women that I’ve seen want an almost immediately. Even when hey don’t they start hanging around other women who talk about “their man” and they almost immediately start hunting. I think female behavior in AA is equally grotesque. It really bothers me that we laugh off female sexual deviancy and though most men agree men want sex a lot it is the woman who is pursued but most men in AA DO NOT rape or sexually assault women. And what I find deplorable is I’ve literally heard female AA leads where the women-no kidding- said she intentionally hunted men because she knew as a woman she could do it without as much accusation she was a predator. For women, our society laughs about female predators. That’s pathetic. I’m a man and happily married with a lovely daughter and I find many AA women’s conduct disgusting. The men are openly mocked and even attacked when they’re too wild. Female misconduct is deemed “humorous” and “exploring”. Nonsense.

      • Ryan,

        I’ve been reading through your posts. I’m pretty sure you have a big hate-on for women because you have completely ignored the many cases that have been presented here on this website where there perpetrator/ codefendent was a woman.

        Or the cases that are male v male.Then there are all the cases of child molestation….

        You have simply used this website to woman bash.

        The petty games that men and women play with each other are nowhere near what has occured in these news reports- and you know it.

        Librarian

  19. Maybe once Obama signs the Violence Against Women Act, we can get more help with bringing justice to the countless women and children sexually abused by AA members.

    House passes Violence Against Women Act after GOP version defeated
    By Tom Cohen
    Thu February 28, 2013

    Washington (CNN) — An expanded Violence Against Women Act won bipartisan approval on Thursday from the U.S. House after Republicans failed to pass their own proposal due to a party split on an issue important to women and minority groups.

    The measure now goes to President Barack Obama, who said in a statement that it was “an important step towards making sure no one in America is forced to live in fear.”

    “I look forward to signing it into law as soon as it hits my desk,” Obama said.

    Thursday’s votes reflected an emerging political reality in the GOP-led House, with a minority of Republicans joining Democrats to pass legislation that has broad public support, including from increasingly influential demographics such as Hispanic Americans.

    By a vote of 166-257, the GOP version of the Violence Against Women Act failed to win a majority after almost 90 minutes of debate. The House then voted 286-138 to pass the Senate version, with 87 Republicans joining all 199 Democrats to provide majority support.

    Originally passed in 1994 and reauthorized since, the act provides support for organizations that serve domestic violence victims. Criminal prosecutions of abusers are generally the responsibility of local authorities, but the act stiffened sentences for stalking under federal law.

    Supporters credit the act with sharply reducing the number of lives lost to domestic violence over the past two decades.

    Last year, the House and Senate were unable to compromise on another extension of the act, with Republicans opposing Democratic attempts to specify inclusion of native Americans, undocumented immigrants and lesbian, transgender and bisexual women.

    The complete article-
    http://www.cnn.com/2013/02/28/politics/violence-against-women/index.html

  20. The 13th Step, Sexual Abuse in 12 Step Programs
    “Same shit, verbatim” my friend Miranda says, and it’s the truth.

    It’s one of those ongoing problems that just doesn’t seem to want to go away. There are a lot of descriptions for it: sexual harassment, predatory behavior, sex addiction, etc., etc. It’s nothing new, and never pretty, but there is something particularly despicable about it when it goes on in places we associate with safety. like churches and schools.

    And 12th Step programs, where it’s known as the 13th Step.

    There are a million bad recovery jokes about it, but sadly, the issue itself is not funny. This week I have heard from three females, two adults and one 16 year old girl, all of whom had been subjected to sexual harassment at Narcotics Anonymous meetings.

    I have heard about a male who asks for phone numbers, then takes a list intended for females and begins to mass text the women, saying he needs someone to talk to. He doesn’t even have the imagination to vary the message.

    As my friend says, “Same shit, verbatim.”

    Invariably someone says that it isn’t just a male-harasses-female issue, but to be honest, I could count the number of female-harassing-males incidents I have encountered on one hand and have fingers left over.

    So let’s be clear: issues of sexual trauma and abuse abound in 12 Step programs. Predatory behavior is always destructive, in this setting, it downright lethal. Everyone deserves a chance to recover from addiction, and not to be driven away from a source of help and comfort by sexual harassment and abuse.

    I took the Roman Catholic Church, of which I used to be a devout member, sternly to task for ignoring, aiding and abetting sexual abuse.

    I will do the same to the 12 Step programs, which I love with all my heart. I refuse to be part of covering up sexually predatory behavior because of “anonymity” any more that I would condone it under the guise of “the greater good” in the church. If you engage in predatory behaviors in N.A. and A.A or any other 12 Step program, as far as I am concerned, you have forfeited your right to anonymity, and I will deal with you as I would any other sexual predator.

    I will not let you destroy lives in a program that exists to save them.

    • Wow ! Powerful article ken ! Nice to hear someone is feeling exactly what a few of us here in Akron are feeling . There is a serious situation going on here area meetings in Akron area& AARecovery club in cuyahoga falls Ohio, where Vince HUDAK openly admitted in the rooms of AA, that he is a sexual pedafile that is preying on the young and vounerable women ,newcomers ,minor children of AA members , and girls fresh out of IBH recovery treatment facility . He also called a special board / employee meeting in December 2012 and announced that he was praying a woman with cancer dead in hopes to console one of her minor daughters whom was 12 yrs old , he then aloud said,” this woman has four daughters, and yes I have been have been having lustful and sinful thoughts and desires for all of them. I have pictures of the and have been using these pictures while mastrubatung. He then when on to share how a few of this woman’s daughters have been victims of sexual assult as children , and added these words with the sickest look in his eyes ,”as you all know women who are abused sexual really enjoy sex, so yes guys I was praying Her dead in hopes to be with one of her daughters sexually “. Right after Vince got done doing that pathetic ‘PUBLIC ‘ lil amends ,he looked at the one young girl he hired and said ,”yes even you I have been lusting disturbingly for, but it gets worse than that I also have sinful ,lustful thoughts for your minor daughters. He continued on for about half hour with open amends infront of board members , members and employees, sharing that he even treated this one girl employee very badly because he found out that she was saving herself for marriage and that he was the reason the girl quite because of his inappropriate actions towards her. He told women members that were also present at this meeting that he had been having sick sinful thoughts about them. He went on & on until finally someone shut him up. But the sickest part is that He was acting president and manager of this club, and the other board members told Vince that he didn’t have to resign , that He is one of us an alcoholic and we should all support him. They still allow him to come into club when young children are there ,as well as the female employees that he spoke of in sick sexual manner also work there still. Horrible sick situation! A few of us that were present ate trying to reach out toAA service board and Skrin intergroup but they turn a deaf ear. The woman with the four daughters that he prayed dead recently encountered an altercation with vince at her home group which is held in the church she is also a member of ,and several members of her own home group said, ” this is an outside issue and that they couldn’t ask Vince to leave. Even after he swung at her and verbally abused her . Please help with any suggestions you may have on actions we can take with AA world service ,ect . Beth

    • Yes- men are more likely to be a “predator”. No one would probably disagree with that but female deviancy is different but the same as men’s. I’ve seen women date several different men and then put them, intentionally, into physical altercations with each other by telling each one the other one hurt her. I’ve literally brokered peace between two men who finally found out the truth. Other 12 step members laughed about it and the woman happily went on her way because there was and still is, zero accountability for women. Her behavior was seen as “funny” and no one would’ve cared if the men really hurt each other. How pathetic is that?

    • HI AMANDA, Good for you for speaking out. I am making a Doc about this. I left AA after 36 years sober 2 years ago. makeaasafer@gmail.com

      Many women have contacted me. The BS is over. They lawsuits for sexual harassment in civil cases need to begin.

      Its against their CIVIL rights. You dont even need a lawyer to file this kind of case. EVERYONE needs to do it if this has happened to you.

      Its BS and it needs to stop. SUE AA in NY and Sue the person and the place where the meeting takes place. SUE NAWS , the person who harassed you and the church or club where it takes place. Go to The police, make them file any and all reports and keep good clean records.

      This is very similar to like I said earlier to The Catholic, Church, The Boy SCOUTS of AMERICA also sued an dlost and Jerry Snadusky, and now all the way to ROME and The POP.

      WITH one week of Mea Culpa being on HBO that F**KER resigned. Get it. Its our media, our movies, our TV that make shifts today. Not Big newspapers anymore. NOT THE NY TIMES. NOT THE LA TIMES …they are all infested with old timer AA and NA member! I know

      I know many of them. I was there in 1975. They are all so arrogant . Its another one of their fabulous traits.

      Good Night for now! http://www.stop13stepinaa.wordpress.com or http://www.leavingaa.com or makeaasafer@gmail.com or listen to my radio show on http://www.blogtalkradio.com/saferecovery 2 years of shows and 68,000 listens. I think more …lie millions have left AA and NA unhappy , abused, and harassed.

      We are not the minority. THEY are! Is just an Illusion for now. But not for long.:)

  21. There is 13 Steps in NA… AND Nobody I ever MET does the first 12……

    13th stepping is when Men HIT on women, using information they shared in meetings to win them over, and then try to have sex with them.

    For example, a man named Henry B., shares in meeting what a great family man he is. He has been sober for 5 years, and he is great father and husband. He loves his children and works hard as a back breaking Mail Man staying clean and supporting his 2 mentally disabled kids. ‘what a good guy when he is not going postal’ BUT, Then his mean wife kicked him out of house, and won’t have sex with him. Henry claims “I am such a good guy now, and my wife is so horrible.”
    She doesn’t understand him. Henry Miraculously, (CULT LIKE) has transformed himself from BadBOY, Drug Addict to Perfect Husband. A new Women (innocent new comer) hears this unbelievable story and thinks, “this can’t be true”. How could his wife be so mean, and this guy can’t be that great. BUT, then other NA members (Henry’s Sponsor, and freinds) share stories, of what a great friend poor Henry has been. Henry saved one guys life with countless phone calls and great manly advice. Henrys’ sponsor states how he works the program so hard and is this perfect human being right now. Other group members are sharing how they love Henry and how great a guy he has become over 5 long years in NA. There is a lot of hugging and people saying they love each other. To a new person it is strange but Henry’s story becomes believable because other people are strongly backing him up. Saying how great he is, and what a great “Family Guy”.

    Henry seems like a safe, family man. HE IS NOT
    HENRY IS A PERVERT, PREDATOR, and a STALKER.. who is really just waiting for his next prey…

    THAT IS “HOW IT WORKS”

    NA membership is mostly Men, around 75% men or more.
    Not safe for women or boys.

    • Wow Amanda… The scenario is put just perfectly. I hope someone reads it and sees herself in it and uses the info to GET OUT of harm’s way with Henry and every filthy, bottom-feeder of his ilk.

      SO DISGUSTING!

      And any woman who listens to the pathetic stories of a married man playing the victim just to get into her panst should really slow her role & kick her brain into gear…and if the man who is telling the lies is in NA or AA…

      Ah… RED to the FLAG much ladies???

      • I’m just curious but does anyone on this board ever believe women are responsible for bad relationships? And by the way maybe a clear definition of sexual assault and predation is needed. Disclaimer: I am merely advocating a point- don’t attribute arguments to personal character. When a man lies about how great he is or how hard he works to women he often wants to have sexy with her. The desire to have sex with a woman is, in and of itself, not bad or predatory. In fact, many decent married couples with kids met, dated, had sex and got married in AA. That’s ok. Still, of those couple I’m sure some of those men misled or maybe exaggerated or whined for female attention- I’m not following how that is predatory. When a man talks to you after a meeting and is attracted to you: this is not predatory. Predatory is not stopping asking or staking or unwanted touching. Simu telling a story for effect during a meeting is not predatory. And I’m sorry but unless he has alien Jedi mind warp powers women must be equally responsible for their behaviors. If a woman sleeps with a man willingly and then claims he preyed on her by convincing her verbally he was a “good guy with money” I’m not sure that fills the bill as the striking definition of sexual predator. Females are not precious pieces of glass who are innocent perfect specimens in all dealings with men for God’s sake. Let’s stop this absurd man bashing here. Women are responsible for their decisions as grown adult women. And I’ve seen WAY TOO MANY WOMEN to even count who have totally spurned decent hard-working, honest, AA gentlemen
        To date and seduce whack job McGee who is a “bad boy” only to later feign disbelief and victimhood when she absolutely knew or completely and totally willingly kept her head in the sand. I respect women too much to give these sort of ludicrous passes.

        • Hey Ryan,

          How about you use the search engine on this website and put in the words ‘child, molest, sponsor, rape, murder, financial, sponsee’????

          This website contains cases for men, women, teens and children who have been attacked by both sexes who were members of AA.

          So ‘No’ you don’t get to point a finger that this is a men bashing website. It is not. You just want to divert the readers attention from the reality that members of AA prey on each other (and their families) and that sentencing violent criminals to AA just gives them a playground of more victims.

          Then AA members/ courts try to hide/ surpress what is going on through the use of the anonymity clause.

          Librarian

    • So, find the name of the club and enter it into yelp.Then write a review. Put his face on a piece of paper and make a warning flyer and paste it on the back of the women’s bathroom. Hand it out to newcomer women. Post his full name here. They have become so bold and the police think AA is something other then it is.

      The pedophiles and rapist and sex offenders know they have it easy in 12 step that no one will no anything. TOO Many of the good strong pp have left or in small hoe meetings.Good luck, Be strong and dont take any crap from any of the,

      • Hi Massive , I just read Amanda’s story and wow it sounds exactly like this guy named Vince H. In the Akron ,cuyahoga falls area in Ohio. He is the poor little victim and reals his women victim victims in …then abuses them and their children. I shared some of my situation with you already . My question is can I really post his picture and continue to speak out about the sick stuff he himself has of his own free will admitted publicly. Even the part that he recently turned himself in for rape of 12 & 8 yr old . He also announced that he is knowingly giving girls a sexually transmitted disease.

  22. One of the groups I went to in ky had a guy that would talk about how he was gonna kill his son-n-law and daughter for not letting him see the grandkids he was a nut. Nobody ever took it serious and they just said he is crazy. Buyt I watched the same people tell another member to call the police on her daughter for having weed in her house.

    • Right-that makes sense- call the police on your daughter for weed, but not on the homicidal guy wanting to kill his family. Yes Insanity is embraced in AA- but God forbid anyone ever drink or drug, or even have a relationship with a family member or a dear old friend that might have a couple drinks here and there or catch a buzz once in awhile.

  23. So r they gonna fund a 12 step program for molesters,rapist,pedofiles, and abusers next. And when they relapse say oh it was my insanity from my disease give me a 24 hour chip. I will do better this time. AA wouldn’t except that but they want the public to except their bullshit

    • Actually that is exactly what they should do is have special meetings for certain demographics like that. Have security too! If the courts want to mandate them then have them at the courthouse, not in the church basements near daycare and schools. All other meetings should be for non-mandated people who actually want to go.

  24. This is the Story James Albert Walker (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Jamesalbertwalkert/)

    about a homeless person impersonating a Na AA guru who singles out mentally ill and vulnerable women in the Galveston Texas area. both he and several others as a matter of record have and do approach new females and offer them Cocaine or marijuana after taking them to meeting or in the outpatient treatment center located here in Galveston called the Daily Bread. or those who are living at the women s shelter or Salvation Army or ( GIGNA – Galveston Island Narcotics Anonymous Group) any women who is homeless and comes into contact with the fellowship. he first began giving her wrong information to mislead and confuse her against her fiance’s advice, to not get involved with this predator. during the course of several months, she would receive phone calls from either this person or his friends who were also in the same outpatient treatment center offering her cocaine or other drugs for sex. and telling her to leave home and meet them in a local hotel where he worked.

    at this point he was well aware that she suffers from mental illness ( Personality Disorder NOS and Schizo effective Disorder bipolar type with psychotic features) AS HE AND SEVERAL OTHERS CONTINUED TO SEXUALLY ABUSE HER BY OFFERING HER SEX FOR COCAINE, SHE BECAME MORE ERRATIC AND WAS NOT ABLE TO ATTAIN ANY TYPE OF SOBER TIE DUE TO THE FACT THAT HE AND HIS ASSOCIATES KEPT CONTINUALLY USING AND ABUSING HER..
    AS A LAST DITCH EFFORT HER SOCIAL WORKER WAS CONTACTED HERE IN Galveston AT THE gulf Coast RECOVERY CENTER M M H R AND SHE WAS APPRISED THAT THIS person James Albert Walker HAD BEEN GIVING HER BOTH DRUGS AND ALCOHOL AND IN A MANNER WHICH ALLOWED HIM TO SEXUALLY ABUSE HER.. ( drug or alcohol facilitated rape))

    she was promptly removed from the City of Galveston and taken to a facility for her safety and to recover by her social worker after she was informed of this persons actions.
    however a few weeks later he took it upon himself to go and take her out of the facility where her social worker had placed hher, and he took her to the Salvation Army homeless shelter
    . she states that she told him she did not want to be around him anymore and left, he found her took her to a hotel room and gave her cocaine laced marijuana, where he soon brutally and savagely assaulted and beat her

    http://www.bustedmugshots.com/texas/galveston/james-albert-walker/65682871

    http://www.mugshotsonline.com/texas/galveston/james-albert-walker/65682871

    The Galveston District Attorney did not find out these facts as he convinced his victim to keep this hid and he was only charged with domestic violence ( see above links)

    this type of behavior has gone on in the 12 step community.far to long and older members turn a blind eye
    the mere fact that his victim is mentally ill and he has on more than one occasion given her drugs and alcohol along with his associates who were also both in the fellowship and the outpatient treatment center, should be made known to the Galveston District Attorney , and that is was never about domestic violence but someone sexually abusing and assaulting a mentally ill victim who now refuses to divulge the truth of the matter . he the predator admits he likes to use and abuse women who are mentally ill and emotionally and mentally unstable, on July 4 & 2012 at the annual narcotics Anonymous YMCA meeting in front of several other members , and here it is he has undermined and harmed someone and yet no one will take issue with this predatory behavior of a defenselessness mentally ill women he has bamboozled into keeping quiet and protecting him

    • Hi James- thanks for this information. It is so tragic what is happening in the rooms of AA/NA/CA/SA. We need more stories to come out and more people exposed for abusing the vulnerable in AA meetings.

      This guy actually admitted he liked taking advantage of women during a
      NA picnic? No one said anything to him or is doing anything? Typical 12 stepper response. Even when other members do say something, they rarely will throw them out of meetings.

  25. I sobered up as a teenager and my experiences with sponsorship have been a little off the beaten path.

    Like many who sobered up young, I know what it’s like to be the youngest person in the room and have the most time sober, yet still be considered “inexperienced.” As a result, most of my sponsorship experience has been with very young women, as young as thirteen years old. They were the only ones who would give me a real chance. Thank God I found these girls and could carry the AA message to them. They have saved my life.

    Since most of the girls I’ve sponsored were under eighteen when I began sponsoring them, I was presented with a number of unique challenges. Perhaps the most troubling of these challenges has to do with sex. In my experience, AA is not always a safe place for a young woman. I have seen “thirteenth stepping” and, unfortunately, sometimes serious predatory behavior in meetings. I experienced these things, firsthand, as an underaged member of AA. A number of men were sexually inappropriate toward me, despite the fact that I was only sixteen.

    I am not saying that only men are capable of that kind of behavior, or that all men in AA are creepy. In fact, there were plenty of men who helped keep me out of harm’s way. My AA “dads” were just as vital to my recovery as the women in the program. From the men in AA, I learned how to interact with men without manipulating or trying to get something out of them. I carried what I learned from these men into all aspects of my life.

    I learned to stick to familiar meetings, where people looked out for me. I was told not to get into a car with men I didn’t know and not to go over to someone’s house by myself. This might seem obvious, but I didn’t make it to AA at sixteen years of age as a result of my impeccable judgment and solid boundaries. I didn’t know that I couldn’t trust someone just because I met them in a meeting. I had to be taught these things.

    My first sponsee was a thirteen-year-old girl; I twelfth-stepped her at the request of her school counselor. She used to call me, upset because some guy she thought she could trust had come on to her–often someone over twice her age. I hated to tell her that she wasn’t always safe in AA, but it was the harsh truth. I did my best to look out for her and keep her safe, as was done for me. Many told me that it was not my job to look after her. I knew I wasn’t her chaperone. We don’t do that in AA–which I made quite clear to her mother. Still, as a human being, I couldn’t help feeling morally obligated to intervene when I could. It is one thing to take a “not my business” approach to thirteenth stepping when it’s a matter of interfering with someone’s recovery (which I still don’t like), but this was illegal and possibly abusive. I made that fact known (loudly) to any individual who acted inappropriately. It was particularly difficult when she had a few years of sobriety but was only sixteen. People didn’t view her as a newcomer, because she wasn’t. But that didn’t mean that she wasn’t still a minor.

    Through many painful learning experiences, I tried to help her take inventory and change her behavior to be less inviting to such advances. It was trial and error for me as well–I had to learn what was and what was not appropriate for me to do as her sponsor. I wasn’t alone in feeling protective of her. There were a number of people who looked out for her safety within the rooms of AA.

    She was the first of many young women I have had the gift of working with and this issue has come up with many of them. But whenever I sought guidance from people in AA, the answers I received were all over the board. Some members quoted, “We do not want to be the arbiter of anyone’s sex conduct” and “progress not perfection,” in defense of an individual’s behavior, telling me to stay out of it. On the other hand, vigilantes threatened to beat up men they saw doing this. It all seemed wrong. So what was I supposed to do when I found out that a thirty-year-old AA member had pressured my fifteen-year-old grand-sponsee into sex? I was not interested in following people around to see what they were doing in their private lives, but I couldn’t ignore what was happening right in front of me.

    We are taught in AA to take our own inventory. I didn’t want to excuse any young woman from taking responsibility for herself. To do so would rob her of an opportunity to grow and change. On the other hand, our society has laws that clearly spell out that it is an adult’s responsibility to not harm a child, no matter what the child does. Ultimately, I convinced the fifteen-year-old to tell her dad what had happened. I felt it was the responsible thing to do. Her father made the decision about whether or not to involve the police, as was his right.

    I have stumbled my way through many sticky situations without any real guidelines. Finally, I have come to a point where I feel I can handle these situations without so much confusion and self-doubt. I have figured out what I am comfortable with and what feels right according to AA Traditions and principles. However, that doesn’t mean that it’s easy. I cringe each time I tell a young woman to be wary–even of men in AA. I wish I could tell them that they are safe here, that the realities of the outside world don’t exist in our Fellowship. Unfortunately, this has not been my experience.

    • I sobered up and went to AA when I was 18. I was preyed on the very next day by a rampant 13 stepper. 36 years later I started the grassroots movement to make aa safer. I made the first workshop in CALIFORNIA. It brought open stories of rape. Much worse then 13 stepping.

      AA and NA have to change. They need workshops everywhere in every district. They sexual aharassmnet polciy forced by th eNARS and AA WS OFFICE from the top down.

      AA is being sued for wrongful death. NA will be soon to follow. But the next round of lawsuits will be sexual harassmnet and civila cases. You see. 13 stepping is actually done in a meeting…by that I mean , the come on, the flirtation. The breaking of these womanes civil rights. The party is over.

      I know longer stand for this BS. I can help you there if y want or you can leave. It become a disgusting marsh pit in many meetings in California. ALL the good strong women are leaving or have left already.

      my story is long but it is here and many others are joining me http://www.leavingaa.com

      Im sorry for all you have been thru . there is no reason for this. But AA and NA need to be regulated. There needs to be policy and procedure for sexual harassment and even playing Doctor.

      So, I am making a DOCUMENTARY about it all. My story. The BS I went thru and all that is going on in NA and AA all over the world . The day has come for us to speak up and speak out.

      AA was created in 1935. They have NEVER UPDATED their literature EVEr> Even though NA has a bit a more modern approach they still turn a blind eye. The CHurch, The Boyscouts, Football, Jerry Sandusky ad now the POPE.

      NEXT AA AND NA.

  26. Keeping the rooms free of sexual predation: Whose responsibility is it?
    How safe is your AA meeting? Have you ever personally not felt safe? Have you ever had someone give you a hug and walked away with an uncomfortable feeling?

    I ask these questions because I view with concern the sexual predation that I’ve seen in AA meetings. I have seen it happen in all gender relationships, but my personal experience is as a women being preyed upon by men.

    I know many of you are thinking, “Well, that’s an outside issue,” but I disagree. How can it be an outside issue if it affects my safety in the rooms of Alcoholics Anonymous? Recent history reveals many organizations that have been held in high regard and beyond reproach for many years have recently been scrutinized for turning a blind eye to the behavior of their staff or volunteers toward their vulnerable members. These organizations seemed to have had knowledge of the behaviors and stuck their proverbial “heads in the sand.” The victims, along with the media and the courts, have forced these organizations to take a long, hard look at what they had knowledge of and what they did or did not do to try and stop it from occuring.

    Now, there are no AA “police,” but the membership does take responsibility for its common welfare and carrying the message to those who still suffer. I have heard it said over and over again that the newcomer is the most important person in the room. Do our actions show it?

    I came into the rooms 22 years ago with all the humiliation and degradation that happens to a practicing alcoholic women. I needed to feel safe from the life I was leaving behind.

    Imagine my surprise when what I found was much of the same barroom behavior I had just left. I was groped, received obscene phone calls, stalked, and was nearly date-raped by a member of the Fellowship. Thank God for a strong female sponsor who taught me to not tolerate that behavior and to put a firm stop to it. She shared openly with me the facts about those who could not be trusted in the meetings I attended. There were many times I did not feel safe walking into the meeting, except that I knew she would be there and I would not be alone.

    What about all of the new women who wander in, do not immediately find a sponsor, and leave in fear? I am deeply saddened when I think about all the female AAs I know personally who have been sexually assaulted by other members. They unfortunately found out the hard way that not all members of AA are trying to live our spiritual way of life. These women remained; how many left?

    Calling this behavior “thirteenth stepping” makes it seem benign. This euphemistic terminology makes it sound like a part of the Twelve Steps, when in fact, that couldn’t be further from the truth. How can being that self-centered and selfish have anything to do with working the Twelve Steps?

    Many may think it a bit harsh to call this behavior “sexual predation.” The term “sexual predator” often means a person who habitually seeks out sexual situations. Predation usually refers to one group or person hunting and killing another, or stealing from and destroying another. Is seeking out vulnerable newcomers for sexual gratification not a predatory behavior? Is not taking away a person’s chance to feel safe the same as stealing her chance to stay sober?

    Does this mean there is not a chair at the table of Alcoholics Anonymous for the sexual predator? Absolutely not; all who wish to recover are welcome. But this does not include taking away someone else’s opportunity to stay sober.

    Much of this discussion has been changing over the last decade. AA is seeing younger members enter its rooms, and turning a blind eye to what is happening to a minor is very different in the eyes of the law. Like it or not, an individual with knowledge of the behavior could be held criminally liable.

    We owe it to our members to make sure the meeting rooms of Alcoholics Anonymous are safe for everyone who enter. That means talking about this topic in our group conscience and with each other. It means leaving barroom behavior behind and treating the newcomers like they truly are the most important people in the room.

    M.P.

  27. Great work here. Yes This man did alot to try and change things. They the Board of AA made him wait A YEAR to read his letter to them. He then helped us when I created the first Make AA Safer Workshop.

    I too wrote letters with complaints of what was being reported to us on the ground to say AA needed Safety Policies and Procedures. No response from the first letter. Except from Robin Bromley who was the editor of The Grapevine. Then they fired her. She was publishing stories regarding sexual predation mainly 13 stepping stories.

    I have been working on this since 2009. My activist story is too long but every since the Karla Brada murder in Santa Clarita, the tide has changed.

    Thanks again anti and all at nadaytona for all you have done and all you continue to do. 🙂

  28. Another AA Leaked Internal memo a decade ago, this time in the UK. Things have only gotten worse since then. It shows that this has been a continuing problem globally for quite sometime.

    Drink advice service confronts sex abuse
    AA acts on rising reports of attacks by volunteers

    Gerard Seenan
    The Guardian, Tuesday 4 July 2000 20.21 EDT

    Vulnerable alcoholics seeking help for their addiction are being subjected to sexual and other abuse at the hands of long-serving volunteers from the world’s largest alcohol support group.
    An internal memorandum circulated to every Alcoholics Anonymous group in the country reveals that volunteer members are increasingly being investigated by police forces examining allegations of sexual abuse.

    It is impossible to quantify the allegations since AA is committed to anonymity and will not be drawn on any aspect of its work. But the document makes it clear the group’s general service board has known of the problem for some time and feels it must be tackled at a national level.

    According to the memo, leaked to the Glasgow-based Herald newspaper, within AA “there is a small minority of men and women who operate with sick but hidden agendas, and, no matter what they may say, they seek self-gratification often at the expense of other members or potential members”.

    Public exposure of the memo is embarrassing to AA, but the document itself was being interpreted yesterday as an attempt by the group to confront the ills which have long dogged other voluntary organisations.

    A senior alcohol addiction worker said: “It came as a bit of a shock to me and I have never picked up on these allegations before. AA [is] in a difficult position: we all put checks and balances in place, but it is very difficult to protect people entirely from abuse of position because the people involved are invariably clever.”

    It is understood the chair of AA’s York-based general services board drafted the memo after being made aware of the rising number of police investigations. It was issued as a consultation document to autonomous groups across the country and the board is hoping to find new ways of framing guidance to prevent further abuse.

    Abusers within the organisation are said to have exploited their positions as “sponsors”, taking advantage of the vulnerable when they are at their lowest ebb. Contact is usually made through telephone helplines and then continued in the home.

    AA has guidelines governing who is eligible to become a sponsor or answer helplines and make home visits. But the memo reveals these have been broken, with some taking on the role with neither the appropriate experience nor duration of sobriety. The document says: “There appears to be a growing number of cases around the country of police (and other agency involvement) in allegations of unlawful sexual conduct by AA members.”

    It warns that the organisation has the “potential to become a breeding ground for predatory behaviour”.

    Although AA holds its creed of anonymity sacrosanct, there is admission of a general acknowledgement of abuse within AA, and that the organisation will be unable to duck exposure of such abuse. The organisation says it will not protect members from the law.

    A spokeswoman for AA yesterday confirmed the leaked document was genuine, but refused to comment further.

Leave a Reply to Jody Williams Cancel reply

Your email address will not be published. Required fields are marked *