This is a very informative site!



“The primary purpose of this site is to speak for those who don’t have a voice, and those too intimidated to speak, and also those poor souls who don’t even realise they been abused, believing their experience to be the AA message.

Here are just a few. We have changed the names to protect them, but if anyone doubts what follows contact us and we will, where appropriate arrange one to ones to validate. This particularly applies to those trusted servants now coerced into the “trash the messenger” tactic of stay on the fence with head firmly in sand approach. Meet these refugees and call them liars to their face. What follows is not hearsay, gossip or rumour. Its real stories from real people. I repeat only the names have been changed to protect the damaged and the innocent.

1) Henry had to miss meeting and service job as a relative was seriously ill and hospitalised. Henry got a sub for service but next day cult sponsor told him he was “self centred” Henry explained family crisis, sponsor said his first loyalty was to group!!! Henry said bye bye!!! (He was strong enough, some aren’t)

2) Lucy is a single mum, she was told to put minimum of ten pounds in pot at each meeting. (Look at your treasurers report on group donations, cults will look impressive, they are supposed to) Lucy said bye bye!! Did you check those figures yet ! Big bucks eh. How do they get so much in the pot, ask Lucy she knows.

3) George. Told to leave his eleven-year-old daughter home alone to attend meeting. George protested and pointed out that this was actually illegal. (14 is legal age for home alone) Cult sponsor said go or you will drink. George said bye bye.

4) Steven .14 years sober, told he wasn’t really sober because he takes medication. Steven was and is still a tad angry, he said bye bye.

5) Jennifer. 8 years sober had serious problems of personal nature and attempted suicide. She survived. Her cult sponsor told her not to share her experience in the meeting because “We don’t want to hear negative stuff” Jenny said bye bye.

6) Michael. Turned up at meeting having had a couple of drinks. He wasn’t drunk, or disruptive, but was told to “sit at the back and keep quiet” – oops bye bye.

7) Another Michael, Shared for five minutes then admitted he’d had a drink that day. Promptly told to be quiet as he was “Spreading the Illness”. He left meeting immediately never to be seen again. Could be bye bye – maybe amen.

There are many more like these, but the only reason their stories became known is because these folks either found or returned to mainstream AA. God only knows how many more went out into the night and left what they thought was AA. History shows that it is the story of survivors that eventually nailed the culprits.

Do we continue to allow this in our name? Well if we do then we justify it and condone it. We are only autonomous when it doesn’t affect other groups or the fellowship. We are responsible. Our pledge says that.

So this site is really for Jenny, Michael, Lucy, Steven, Michael, George, Henry, and all those yet to come.

Most of the above stories had a good outcome. We have others that are truly tragic. So tragic that we could not witness them if challenged, you can probably work out why.’

96 thoughts on “AA CULT WATCH

  1. An AA perspective . If people were 12 stepped properly ie Steps 1 and 2 firmly in place , before they get to a meeting , as it was in the old days , then you would get the correct people , decided by us and not some random court ! Look to yourself first and don’t be distracted ! Read pp 18 of the Big Book , there you find the description of the sponsor !! ” Without whom nothing can be achieved ” . Don’t be distracted .

    • No one needs an untrained non professional sponsor! Sponsors have been known to to do much harm to their sponsees by telling them to get off meds, not seek professional help from a therapist and talk about their personal issues with other 12 step members.

      Instead people can check out SMART Recovery http://www.smartrecovery.org

      There are many options available to AA and NA.

      • You absolutely do not need a professional sponsor, that’s a bunch of bullshit. Yes, professional therapy is needed for a well-rounded recovery experience, but your sponsor does not need to be (and SHOULD NOT be) your therapist.

    • 75% of alcoholics get sober on their own WITHOUT AA. That means one does NOT need a sponsor in order to “achieve” sobriety. Many of the original “100” eventually relapsed anyway. Also, my page 18 must be different. I don’t see any of that.

  2. Being Clean and Sober 24 3/4 years now and finding my way here 😉 ive read a lot on here and other links that have expressed and shared all i felt from the very beginning of my Journey in a new way of life for the better.
    Personally i have always been a very strong willed person in general BUT not when it came to Drugs especially and Alcohol which was not my main problem, After doing around 25 or so years behind the walls , Very Head strong and Hard core to the bone and never being a follower but a so called leader. Eventually going around to the rooms not only myself but in my first years out and in recovery i also was a single dad who had won FULL custody of my daughter who was 8 months at the time,so i was pack packing her to meetings 2/3 a day, so had my hands full But loved it…I have never been a person to surrender to anyone by choice to control my life one and only sponsor was enough for me who i fired 😉 But i was mind set in making it, but also whiteness all the BS in the rooms as shared here and because of my upfront no holds barred attitude speaking my experience strength and hopes which rubbed the closed minded ,brainwashed,bamboozled,hoodwink,cultist,attitudes and ways within the rooms while their were many who respected me for the honesty and thanked me for being so open saying they had related big time with me, but felt intimidated by many of going against them because then you considered NOT doing the steps, Hum
    Personally i don’t do the GOD thing and was told by bible thumpers then your NOT doing the steps 😉 I seen things in different ways and knowing their are more than one way to see and do things and whats good for one just may not be for another, But what are the steps, excepting life on lifes own terms ? and how to look at things indifferent ways good or bad but learning from our mistakes knowing all the damage done it will take a life time of learning it never stops, we only get better and continue to by choice. You know at least in Northern California where i grew up, i expressed that they claim it isn’t a god program but in the steps it touches on it validating it even tho they mention a power greater than myself to lighten the claim but all in all it is….
    I also became very aware of child molsters O no and made it clear i will run them off because they do NOT belong here, their response Everyone is welcome, Hum well i let them no thats so BS and i will run them out, I was here for recovery NOT having to keeping my attention on them which i did because i had a baby in my arms when attending every meeting and where i came from they didn’t last long and i was a supporter of that and id be damn to allow them to use the rooms as a safe place while their lurking at our children ;-( I was told i was wrong and this that and the other and i told them you can whoop me so that is that and i am here for a reason and can get recovered but they can’t, so the brainwashed people who new me and disagreed,said i was character assassinating them,what character ? Then that person was in the news for molesting 3 children in the program who they had in trusted to be around and watch they children, Hummm what did i tell you , and then they had remembered all i had put in the rooms had become reality ;-(
    I also was tired of those who say the same ole same ole year after and never changed, so maybe you should do less talking and more listening ?
    They NA would talk dodo about AA when if it wasn’t for AA NA would never be…
    Then their the meds people , do they need them or not issue ? Questioning if they were really clean or not….
    People in NA justifying they their drinking because it had never been an issue and making claim to they are clean celebrating they are clean, Hummm
    Power going to peoples heads,controlling,these people run people out of the programs if not strong enough to see threw the BS and NOT everything is BS theirs a lot of good too, because it did help me…
    So i wonder now if they are claiming to be clean smoking mary jane because they have a doctors scrip ???? hummm
    After ten years i seeked out one on one counseling and it was what i needed, i check in once in a while to stir things up and social 😉 and i will tell you my recovery is solid, and now im a very proud grand pa living life on life’s own terms isn’t this what its really about ? how to cope and become part society ? Peace all great site

  3. some ppl in aa ssmoke potand are non god but know lots and some in na drink and do sex and are ok …. many have street ways and backgrounds and with help they get a life ,married ,kids, service and hapy life”” service is important to be giving back and grounded “”balanced ”doctors can push pills and meds can help in short term to rebalance the brain”but read the big book and hear of how many wanted to kill or did kill themselves—- SOME PPL R DEPRESSED PERSONALITY THAT WAS NOT FULLY UNDERSTOOD BUT dr bob and silkwood caught on sadly if ppl dont want help from a doc and use meds we cant do much denial….not all aa is old school but god ways are many just try it to pray,,, but that does not mean ppl need safe therapy to deal with abuse of past be it sexual phyiscal emotional slowly safely …..but speakin with others who are in that same boat is healing …..telling ur story can be healin and damaging exposed feelin not safe feelin that a one on one is more safer……doin a 4 and 5 with some one who never did that is scary but one who has has nothing over u ….is so freeing of shame (sense of bad) and guilt……fuckin and relationship sex are different some dont want to be close…… but clearly old men and young women are sexuall addiction and predatory (it is like a prostitue and and old man)……some ppl have no morals at all ….you are free to listen ,pick and choose and change sponsers….ppl just pass on what they were told……now they was a conmittee on predatory behaviour and how to deal with it …..iknow i am chairman woman and stand my ground…many women are ggrossed out by old men ideas -like ruin good sex

  4. I DO NOT UNDERSTAND how both men and women in a.a n.a can call men in these meetings sexual predators when it takes two to tango. I been going to meetings for a while and have been hit on by women, many times, who are looking for a sober man. You can’t just blame male sexuality thus for women in the meetings are seeking out men too. Also, their are psychotic women in these meetings who prey on weak minded men and take advantage of them. This happens when a person shares his feelings at a meeting as a person and is taken advantage of by another. Strong minded men naturally don’t share their feelings with women they are not intimate with. I personally know it happens to men in the rooms. THESE WOMEN ARE THE REAL SEXUAL PREDATORS

    • Sam when it comes to sexual predation it DOES NOT take 2 people. You are blaming the victim. Just because men dominate being the sexual predators in AA and NA does not mean that women are never at fault for taking advantage of men. That is discussed as well in the overall dangers for ALL members of 12 step meetings to be at great risk emotionally, financially, spiritually and sexually.

      Mental Institutions and Mental Health Courts send psychotic people to AA and NA every day, so no doubt you are going to have both men and women mentally ill attending these AA/NA meetings with some being very dangerous.

      The vast majority though of newspaper articles are of men committing violent attacks on women, but you should see on this website that there are stories of women guilty too of harming men. One women was recently sent to AA after stabbing a 62 year old man multiple times!

  5. im sooo glad there,s istes like these available. ive been clean and sober32 yr,s. I cant even begain to tell all the horror stories ive experienced andor now about that happen,s in the aa cult. ive recent ly broke free!!! some tome,s I cry absoutr tear,s of joy to be free of this abusive mind control cult. I saw an aa cult member at the coffee shop yesterday, I told him (theoreticalyspeaking) if he pulled out a gun and put yo my head and,gave me a choice between going to aa or id be shot, id say pull the fucking trigger mother fucker!! this my seem a bit dramatic ,but that,s how strongly I feel. im deprgraming my self every day,and guess what??? I finnaly feel happy joyous and free!!! I also told my friend if he ever got tired of drinking the a.a toxic kool ade that comr look me up!!! 🙂

    • women who seek out old men are predators and they have power over men sexuality mind curious….it is only sex not love”anyone in not abused state of past would say too old or too young and healthy sexuallity is good sex ”women are the rapist in that case

  6. After spending the last hour reading all of these comments, and as a 12-step member who is (from my own perspective) decently well-read on philosophy and currently enrolled in college, I must acknowledge that most things, negative or positive, written about 12-step programs is valid – Yes, NA/AA/CA/SA etc. has a high percentage of criminals and downright sociopaths. And yes, the 12 steps and fellowship have also contributed to (and I say contributing to avoid cult-speak and acknowledge other factors) saving the lives of thousands of those who’ve been caught in the grip of addictive behavior.
    Yes, I’ve met and spoken with numerous pseudo-intelligent people claiming they’ve learned the secret of life. Yes, I’ve met many “creeps” who want to stay clean/sober but are truly still there because they are trying to sleep with younger women. I’ve met hundreds of people for whom the program did not work. I’ve had close friends die of overdoses (whether they’d attended 12-step meetings or not).
    The problem I see, and you can call me biased as I am still an active member after some years, is the members most people are citing as examples of the shittiness of 12 step fellowship. Unfortunately, the big book/basic text/whatever the hell SA uses is written in an ambiguous enough way that people misinterpret it. This is a problem even Bill Wilson say shortly before he passed away. If an experienced member of the fellowship has at least a medium understanding of the 12 traditions, they would see that the fellowship does not tolerate forcing people to do anything, whether by coercing/recruiting/scaring. The 12 steps were written simply enough that people could apply them to their own lives and philosophies. For example, I sponsor men and serve my 12 step fellowship and am very adamant about explaining how I will not be telling them what to do in their program, will not be telling them what to believe, and I’m only one other person who identifies with their problem who can tell them my own experience; it is up to them to find out who they are and what they want in life.
    I’ve had friends who’ve left the fellowship – some are still clean or “drinking” successfully – and I’m happy for them. I make a point to tell people (when asked) that what we do in 12 step fellowships is NOT science based. It’s essentially people who’ve had the same problem as another helping that person by simply telling them about themselves and WHAT THEY DID to get better, which that person is encouraged to take with a grain of salt – all as a means to hopefully get that person’s gears going to finding their own way.
    I may use again one day. I may not. Nothing is guaranteed. I was living in a very dark place for a long time, having had much contact with doctors or counselors who honestly only made me feel worse (though that is only my own experience and in no way am I speaking against formal therapy). However, when finding the fellowship I participate in today, I found people who I believed “got me.”
    I hold my own opinions about courts ordering persons to attend 12 step meetings, which I feel goes against everything the fellowships were formed to do, not to mention filling our rooms with more violent sociopaths (some of whom do not even have a serious drug problem). I also acknowledge calling it a disease or disorder is controversial and it is dangerous to outright tell people they are “powerless” over using drugs or alcohol. Personally, that notion only made sense to me because WHEN I AM using drugs, I cannot stop myself through my own will power, and I’m not willing to risk going back to that state by breaking my abstinence.
    For the noble members of 12 step fellowships whom have actually become better, more giving, and generous people with better coping skills through the 12 steps, hearing of fuckheads stalking women in meetings, idiots who drive people to suicide by encouraging them not to take prescribed medicine, or simply give the fellowships a shitty reputation by doing what they do – it is actually pretty heartbreaking.

    • Thanks man.. I have been reading through your comment and it is the most enlightened thing ive read on this forum. You obviously have your shit together. I founf this blog looking for an AA or NA meeting.. Very elusive as it is titled NA Daytona. Tricky. I dont like tricks. Sobriety is already comfusing enough. I have 19 years clean and i owe every second to NA and AA and to the people ive helped and the ones that have helped me. Its a society of men and woman that wouldnt normally mix. The core is helping your fellow man using spiritual tools. All forms of sickness that are in the world are in those rooms.. Surprise, surprise. At least we are looking for help.. Not to be misled or tricked.. And we are finding it. I am a rebel in a room of rebels and i shut down ajyine that preaches their misguided theories on prescription medicine. Only time i give advice on that is if i have 8 years if school…Dr. in front of my name… And i am assigned to diagnose that person. Othwrwise its bullshit.

  7. I am a non-conformist AA member. Whatever people demand I do, I do the “opposite” of while still following the steps and traditions. It is a great way to see who is lying to you. Also to see who your true friends are in the fellowship. Someone demands I go to a particular meeting, ALWAYS skip that meeting and maybe go volunteer at a soup kitchen or a hospital. Anyone gets in my face, literally walk away from the conversation. A “friend” of mine wanted to talk to me really bad so I called him. It was obvious that the only reason he wanted to talk to me is to find out who my sponsor is. I told him flat out I don’t have one and I refuse to get one because I have done enough step work I already know what to do. He really didn’t like my answer. I told him I refuse to debate it and I don’t push that on people and I ended the conversation. Had he kept pushing me I would have unapologetically hung up on him and not felt the least bit guilty about it. he would have owed me an amends had he guilt tripped me after the fact but I would not ask for it. I don’t hide the fact either. One day in a meeting we were talking about slogans. I said my favorite was “keep it simple STUPID”. I said the funny thing about this was that according to the big book, in “we agnostics” the book actually praises human intelligence so this is merely a person insulting their intelligence to keep their ego in check. Last I checked arrogance was a character defect and we are supposedly powerless over them. So is this not trying to manage that which is unmanageable? If that is the case how is a person allegedly “working the program” even doing step one? I have actually silenced obnoxious meetings in this way. If someone tells me what color ink to use on a moral inventory, I go out of my way defy them while still taking inventory. Once a liar is exposed in this way, it is impossible not to stand up to them. See who the liars and con artists are in meetings and you save yourself a lot of heart ache.

      • Agreed 100% Librarian. For myself I would just phase out meetings and seek alternatives to AA, thereby more than likely phasing out all this additional work (which no one tells you when you arrive in the rooms it would be wise to do).

  8. AA is where I get sex without investing too heavily on overhead financially, and emotionally. I learned that AA is not about achieving sobriety. They hate people who are sober because sober people don’t do the booshits that they’re doing. I’m a long time AA member who doesn’t drink. When I was in college. I went in AA meetings and made up stories of my drunkenness. I chaired and secretary their meetings. As the time goes by my popularity with women in AA increases because of my sobriety time. I have slept with my sicko sponsor wife and my idiots sponsees wives. I don’t regret what I did nor worry about what I will do. There is no common decency in AA. When I’m around thieves, liars, sociopaths, free loaders, and hypocrites I learn to play their game. If shit hits the fence I’ll make amend and blame it on my alcoholic mind. The next day I will go back to chasing their women. I’m always one step ahead of them because I was never an alcoholic. I have a college degree, a good car, a good career, a house, and I never drink. I stick around AA because of the women. Those women are better than women outside of AA. They are disposable. I don’t have to worry about long term relationship or marriage with them. My only fear is STD. I always use condom and take extra precaution. Some people might think I’m a heartless bastard for using those women and having sex with my fellow AA members wives. I’m not bother about that because alcohol is much more heartless than me. AA cults members in AA are more heartless than me. Those AA cuckolds are not my fellows because I was never a drunkard like them. I’m just a normal guy who wants sex like every other normal guys. I just know where to get sex for cheap. AA is where I meet women.

      • The maggot speaks the truth:(, that is partly why I left. I needed a shower after each meeting. A totally digusting experience in many ways. Presently, I am sober and involved in a successful and accountable program.

    • Ummmm…..does the word “predatory” feel like it fits for you? Given that you state you are in AA for no reason other than to use women, women who you say are “disposable”, how are you any different from a psychological abusive cult member or sex offender seeking new prey? Ugggggh. I wonder how many others there are in meetings that have no real issues with alcohol but are there for prey only – not even sent by the courts, just there because they see the lack of safeguards in the rooms makes the rooms hunting grounds for new prey? You really are not safe in AA and there is no telling what agenda the person sitting next to you has. No Thanks, I can do without what AA really is – my life is much better today without it.

    • I just want you to know that I was 18 and preyed on by older men in AA, who hid this from others, and then–in my 20’s and getting over my addiction both times–overcoming in different ways, not as serious at 18–more serious in my 20’s–I’m still sober. Listen–the women I know would never sleep with men like him. Okay. So there are also men who are NOT predatorial in meetings! A lot of these women come from abusive backgrounds, this is poison for them. I am a non-conformist on the look-out to MAKE WAVES and USE MY VOICE at meeting level and one-on-one against destruction, whether LIES, Preventable SUICIDE–Note: PREVENTABLE, and/or predators. My Higher Power is bigger than AA, and has me there to watch and use my voice to help others. We don’t have to die and we don’t have to be abused. This man will not get far.

    • Come on guys. He or she is a troll. A sad little troll with a keyboard and a fantasy. Don’t reply, it just makes them hornier (and their bedroom smellier).

    • you have a point_ it happen out in the real world once you sleep around and come into aa __we dont change overnite….aais were sick ppl are and want sex ” men comin off drugs are feeling sexual and become addicted to sex as a way to cope we cant control sexual behaviour but law rape is over traditions”””

        • if someone forces you to have sex – rape is a law punished by law””””aa traditions have no bearing so u have to protect members ” ppl come into aa with with witts who will trust a stranger with all their demons” – women know how to use me,,,many warn newcomers but women come in sayin they are drunks looking for men who want sex. what two newcomers do sex is their own business””” but what a hhhhhhhhhharmin men or women is group members business””” pp lwho time who prey on newcomers or comin back have low selfesteem and see easy prey ,,,,traditions have no bearing in that case

  9. The group response to #’s 6 and 7 was appropriate. I am sober 25 years. I have not done steps nor have I seen my “sponsor’ in 22 years! I am not a class A or class B sobriety supporter. If you do not pick up a drink…you are not drunk. PERIOD!
    As for you “cult watchers”. Get FUCKING lost!!! And do not put me on a mailing list. I have no desire to hear from you.

  10. Since when does someone who’s “had a few drinks” get to talk at a meeting/hold it hostage? The primary purpose of the group is to carry the message to the alcoholic who still suffers, not to listen to their drunken nonsense. Bye bye indeed.

  11. Many substances can bring on withdrawal-an effect caused by cessation or reduction in the amount of the substance used. Withdrawal can range from mild anxiety to seizures and hallucinations.Drug overdose may also cause death…,;..


  12. I have filled this out three times. I have been stalked in AA meetings by some very sick cocaine addicts in groups . I loved AA and some NA too. Then all these strange ppl in NY nY started St theater. They text where u are and get other addicts to harass u. Now its happening in Asheville NC . In churches the same as second on 2nd which is now a law enforcement meeting. It was retired law enforcement who saw it and said yeah this the same cast of characters. They go drink fine wine afterwards. its part of a class to be able to convince addicts that u are one of them. PPL are fairly trusting. I see them drinking in Biltmore area the young ones they send now into NA 12:30 meetings. What can I do.

  13. I have been group stalked in NY NY AA , then again overseas where they did arrest quite a few . NY had midnight meeting full of stalkers for landlords, divorcees, jealous insane women w/ money. I never knew u could sue them. NA here in Asheville NC today was full of “st theater” ppl talking to u w/ a country accent they all start scratching slowly and then faster and faster until they have red faces. When u ask them for 5 yrs why ?They get in your face and say What What with a very sick smile. I saw it in ny . they were from NZ and said they are Aussie or Irish. They shared really bizarre stories and stutter. They choose targets. NOW today in W ASheville what was a nice meeting for older ppl after 5 or ten min they walk in and sit in front of u sometimes 5 or 7. they just moved here and live in halfway houses. They do this to loners , ppl who dont say much. Then they say if u will just go insane we will stop. You have to go to a hospital for a few mos. Then god knows what they do to u. see photos of them in flckr type in gangstalkers. They followed me all over asia. I dont photograph in meetings. They go to meetings in N aussie small towns too. Some are from 3rd world countries or they share that they are. ITs sick we had some great meetings before. Seond on 2nd for yrs was safe. Help.

  14. There’s something not enough people are aware of, so I hope it’s o.k. to address it here:
    NA & AA have bimonthly mail-outs (by request); the former is called “Meeting By Mail” and the latter is called “Loners and Internationalists Meeting (or ‘LIM’).” While these mail-outs are presented as little more than “pen-pal” communications for people who do not attend 12-Step meetings, they can be at least as dangerous as attending meetings, if not more so– because you do not know who you are ‘communicating’ with.
    I personally didn’t have any trouble with the AA mail-out, but a few very sick people got into my life by initially starting to write to me through the “Meeting By Mail.”
    I urge everyone to avoid these mail-outs, and to pass the word on to others.

    • We appreciate the warning, I had no idea. I can see where this would be a recipe for disaster! Plus then these people have your home mailing address?

      • yes, that’s true– not only do people who write to you have your home mailing address, but so does everyone else who reads the mail-outs.

        • p.s. I forgot to add: when I was receiving them, there were quite a few people who were upset because those mail-outs were being sent to individuals in prison, and they didn’t like the idea of inmates having their addresses and other information.

  15. Anti-denial. I came back from working in afghanistan for three years in june of 2011. I was a contractor but the reason I came home was is my shop I worked in was blown up in a fob called chark and I was in it. I walked away w/o a scratch and 2 indians and 1 american were killed in the attack. There was also so good soldiers killed and a lot of people injured. Long story short I came home. I always drank and partied but my wife and parents were concerned about how much I was drinking and how I isolated myself. I had been n AA before for a Dui. Anyways my family had a friend in the cult and I agreed to try it out. W/in 2 months I was told that I didn’t have PTSD from one sponsor even though I was diagnosed with it from a medical proffesional and told me to quit taking paxil,from another I was told needed to leave my wife because her and my kids were holding me back in recovery and that came from someone I had met once. and to apply for disabilty for breaking my hand at work. I’m a union pipefitter and weld for a living and the company I work for help me out while I was off and also got help from the hall in a fund we have set up for short term accidents. I was back to work in 4 weeks in my opionoin disabilty is for people who cannot work and need help. I’m for that. One woman told me that I could draw welfare for being an alcholic and get benifits to assist me so I can take time to make more meetings and concentrate on my “insanity”not sobriety “insanity”. What insanity? I am a grown man w/ a house payment and children to raise I don’t have time for a fake insanity. Just saying. I hope that people don’t buy into their excuses and quackery. It is a shame that so many people and families are destroyed by sosiopaths in AA. No offense but thank God I found smart recovery and true medical help. I have been sober since feb 2012. I did it for my kids, wife, myself, and family and have done it w/o the the guilt of some cult member telling me I’m a dry drunk. And for all the people that do have religion in their lives SMART works for u too. I’m a practicing catholic that got sober through SMART it isn’t limited. Get a therapist not cult member sociopath

    • This site has a link where AA admits to AA members being to blame for suicides because of telling people to not take their meds. Even though AA World Services admits to this they do NOTHING to stop it. They only have a written policy that states it is not their policy to tell AA members to not take their meds! Yet they know it is widespread, and basically what the core of AA really feels.

      Good Lord- that they told you that you did not have PTSD and not to take your meds? They should be sued out the ying yang for saying this, and then to a veteran!

      What is it with them to tell people to quit working just to go to meetings? I think all that dwelling on addiction would actually help cause relapses. People keeping busy with work and family is better medicine for addiction, than telling your story day after day, and listening to other people’s sob stories.

      It seems like a real bad case of misery loves company. They are miserable-maybe are jobless and spouse less, and they do not not want you to have a loving family and good paying job with benefits.

      They really thought you were insane, yet no PTSD?! Right…….

      Thanks for saying how SMART has worked for you. The people who run it at the top are top notch, and they do training for their facilitators. It is good to hear you are a Catholic and it did not interfere with your faith!

      • And it’s not only ‘psych meds’– years ago, I had a young acquaintance whose N.A. sponsor forbid him to take prescription ANTIBIOTICS, telling the kid ‘antibiotics are drugs.’

        • Hi Sunkist! They seem to get so radical to the point people feel they cannot even take an aspirin. They are causing more pain than good by playing doctor without a licence.

          • hi, thanks for your reply… I have a question: are A.A. and N.A. AWARE that Oldtimers/sponsors/etc. are doing this kind of thing?
            The reason I’m asking (& NOT defending the programs by any means) is the literature of those program SAY people cannot do that! so if they’re not aware of it, maybe all of us should start complaining to them!

  16. Thanks anti denial its good to not be alone and I am grateful to have found people that think outside the box and can take responsibility for their actions and not blame it on a fake spiritual disease or say the devil made them do it

    • You are not alone! There is much written on controlling nazi AA sponsors zealots. Many have never had any power in their life, and still might not have control over their own lives yet. So you give some of them a little bit of power and it really goes to their head.

      They did not have to do any hard work, go to school to become a sponsor. They just had to be willing to tell others what to do and when to take a crap and when to even go on vacation. Many are mentally unbalanced and have not received the real help they need to work through their issues. That is what makes AA so dangerous.
      They really start to believe they have all the answers and also lose sight of common decency. Like not trespassing on your property to accuse you of some atrocity. Geez this is YOUR close childhood friend-not theirs! To think your children are there as well.I would be really pissed. This should show your friend what he/she is dealing with.

      • I’m just cruising this website because I’ve seen the car, AA Meds Nazis practicing without benefit of medical degree or license can do. I stay as far away from AA meetings asI can, but about 10 years ago, I corrected a jerk giving some harmful medical advice. “Are you a licensed physician? “That doesn’t matter.” “To this state it does and I AM a licensed, practicing physician with a PhD in Pharmacology along with my MD. Your advice is harmful, toxic and could lead to the recurrence of serious symptoms (I didn’t want to say “psychotic” in front of the patient.) and possibly bad outcomes (I didn’t want say “suicidal ideation or acting out” for the same reason.”
        He gave me that old line about “from Jail or from Yale.’ I replied, “Well, I’m from Yale — School of Medicine, MD, Class of 19XX and I’m Board-certifieid in six subspecialties in Psychiatry alone. I’d say Yale beats jail as a med school alma mater any day. And, oh yes, I have a license to practice medicine and surgery and prescribe drugs. Jail doesn’t issue those credentials or provide you with the quals to take state licensing boards. In other words, shut the fuck up, since you clearly don’t know what your talking about.”

  17. Like I said I was just trying to give my childhood friend other options. And had 3 idiots trespass onto my property and threatened me.

      • Good for you though for letting your friend know about options. Some in AA will say they do not believe they are the only way to sobriety.Yet the majority strongly feel that they are. They do not even want you going to church to replace the pagan religion of AA or try a non-religious support like SMART. As it is, SMART is fine with any religion coming to a meeting. It is just not part of their program. Like most modern medicine is based on science not cult think.

        You might need to call the police and get a no trespass against the AA members for coming on your property.

      • I don’t know how to take that I just know that I grew up w/ him t-ball, all through school, did our apprenticeship together, and been on vacation together w/ our families and these crazies that have known him for a month wanna come to my house where my family is and bring their delusions to where my kids sleep. Unexceptable. I still hold onto my catholic upbringing and raise my children catholic. But I would never join the crusades in the sake of pushing my beliefs. I hope one day I will feel the blind faith again but I don’t. But I can tell u I would never barge on a atheist property or a pentecostal preachers property and threaten them for trying to convert someone I just met

  18. Thank u so much I thought I was alone. I recently tried to get my friend to try smart recovery w/ me and his sponsor and two other cult memembers showed up at my house telling me I was trying to kill my friend and to lose his #. Just saying.

  19. Thanks so much AntiDenial… It is great to read your posts on here as well.

    This is a great site.

    I really wanted to get more work done on that Brada article but I got drawn into following the posts here. The diehard AA supporters become quite predictable in their retorts after a word or two. And you are right. It is a global, multicultural phenomenon with these defected characters. The fact that they do not See themselves at all is Hi-Danged-On-Hellarious!

    No…Well, it would be if they were not so earnestly misguided and in contact with vulnerable people all over the country and the world who are so in need of help as I was. That is why this work that you all are doing is so vitally important. People need access to the truth and to know that viable alternatives to AA do exist. They need to know that they have the POWER to choose. They need to know that they NEVER have to die for not listening to those jacklegs in the “rooms”.

    AA members, sponsors, meeting-tables nor Bill W. hold the POWER of Life & Death over anybody. This must needs be PROCLAIMED often, loudly and endlessly.

    On the Pro-Stepper Commenting on Anti-Stepper Sites Core Point:
    This bothers them. I can see that their major point is that having these sites out there for people who are looking for AA is potentially confusing for the AA prospects. It may potentially cost them heads, souls for The God of AA (and dollars in the baskets). I remember when I first joined AA and I found a few sites giving negative info about AA. It confused me. It knocked me off my center (or the center that AA was attempting to construct for me) and it made it more difficult for me to be “helped” by AA. What a shame, eh?

    I dare say, that if I had not dabbled in researching online from the start of my journey into AA, I would have been more susceptible and obedient to my sponsors “suggestions.” I may even still be in AA today counting my days and licking my Grand Sponsor’s “ring”. Maybe I would be “sober”; Maybe I would be “drunk”. I do not know.

    That is their point. These friggin anti-AA sites are hampering pro-AA’s progress with prospects and newcomers who honestly are in need of help with their struggle…their life or death battle often times with alcohol. They are concerned that these sites might stop someone from getting AA help that needs it. People’s lives are at stake and it is a SERIOUS business indeed.

    (Did I get that right Stepfords?)

    Here is my point:

    Phluck AA and the 1930’s water-wagon rat train it came in on.

    They assume that interference with those looking for help via AA is a negative thing; we do not. They assume that AA is a benevolent entity; we do not. They assume that AA offers real treatment for addiction; we do not. I have heard countless anti-AA’s state that they would rather die than to have stayed in AA. I sincerely feel the exact same way.

    Having a mind enslaved by some dogmatic, made up, rubbish-based system based on adulterated Oxford Group religiosity is no way for a human being to really live…unless he or she mindfully choose to do so. People need and deserve the facts to make responsible choices. I do not wish to choose for anyone save myself. AA’s want to choose the Life Paths those other adults may take. It is not even really for the good of the other adults; it is actually for the ultimate good of AA. It is about Group Consciousness and not Individual Survival. (Just read the danged BB! I won’t go digging and quoting for ya!)

    I hope more people make and find sites like this. I hope EVERYONE who extends their hands and their minds to find the truth will find it before anyone in a cult can take over their lives, their minds and control them. I hope that people who decide to go into something like AA will decide to do so with totally open eyes. I want AA to ONLY get people who want to be brainwashed, controlled and programmed. There are likely some masochistic people out there who will like to get spanked emotionally and physically by Mr. Grand Sponsor Tamer…

    But let them choose. Stop tricking people into AA.

    That is the point here.

    The deceptive methods of organizations like AA and NA are no longer going to be tolerated and there ain’t nothin that pro-steppers can do about it. We know that this stuff makes them angry. But wait! AA’s are not allowed to be angry! Is it time to HALT, maybe? Would your pro-stepping-time not be better spent at a meeting, meditating, reading the 12 & 12 or the BB? I do not wish you any harm. Pick up the phone and call someone in The Fellowship and see if you may be of service.

    You are of absolutely no service on an anti-AA site.

    We do not care WHAT you “think” because we know you chant: “WE THINK NOT” on close to a daily basis. And that sh!t is TRUE!


    Can you see the INSANITY of remaining here and commenting?

    We have been where you are…it is YOU who have not been HERE—YET!

    You’ll be back if you’re lucky & ever ready.

    Don’t keep comin!

    • Yes some steppers are obsessed with coming onto anti-AA sites and trying to derail the conversation and re-write history as far as what people have said, and what even the Big Book says.

      I once had an NA Daytona treasurer tell me that NA did not sell literature or collect money! Some NA and AA members will say anything to protect their cult. Which is another sign of a cult.

      I totally agree with you. Let people make an informed choice BEFORE they go to AA or NA. They should know that AA is religious. That Courts mandate every criminal known to man to AA. That they believe in the disease theory. That they believe you need meetings for the rest of your life. That you are powerless over your addiction and HAVE to PICK a higher power- any higher power. Thus making AA a PAGAN Religion. People need to be forewarned.

      This website is passionate about wanting to protect children and teens from the grips of AA, NA including Ala-non and Alateen. AA is bad enough for the vulnerable like poor Karla Brada who was murdered by the man she met at an AA meeting. But minors have no business co mingling with felons, rapists and killers. Child advocacy groups should be raising hell and advocating for these underage victims. AA is so powerful that those that should be protecting our children are throwing them to the wolves or looking the other way. We want to change that and hold not only AA accountable, but those people whose job it is to protect them, and do not.

  20. Hi lllbefree! I love the way you express yourself! You really hit the nail on the head about how similiar 12 steppers responses and defenses are online. ! not talking about a particular group or city, I am talking about nationally and even globally how similiar the responses are in a zombie, Stepford Wifes sort of way. It really is a phenomenon of sorts. They certainly are lacking in self awareness!

    I do believe with more and more people use the internet, people are able to discover that AA is a cult and how dangerous it can be for you physically and emotionally.

    I am glad you found us too. Countless people have said too they would of found us sooner. Better late than never. Chalk it up to the school of very hard knocks.

  21. Excellent discourse here!

    In doing more research on how exceedingly dangerous AA is for women and minors I started getting into reading the posts here more in depth. (Why do zombies go on sites like this by the way? I have not been on another pro-AA only site since I discovered the truth of what is going on. Why do Steppers even read and comment on sites like this after they see what they are about?) Insanity much Jethro?


    It is so interesting how similar AA members are even online. I found it really creepy as I started interacting with more and more of them, how they all say the same things in basically the same fashion. I had never witnessed such a phenomenon up close before; only on old zombie flicks & sh!t. Now to see that they have that same eerie Stepford Wives Programme Brain Thing going on when they post online is just AMAZING. These people are unbelievable lacking in self-awareness.

    It is no wonder to me now that my ex sponsor spit me from her gag-hole like a rotten seed. After a year and a half I think she could see that I simply would NEVER stop thinking, stop researching or stop asking questions. She called it “hard-headedness”; I call it “having-a-brain-ededness” I have been this way from the time I could speak; which is why I often got slapped in the mouth at church as a child for being insubordinate just for asking obvious questions. Like:

    “But teacher if the earth is only 6000 years old, where did all those millions of years old dinosaur bones come from?”


    “Well, the devil planted them all around the planet to deceive those who question The Lord’s Word. Now shut your disrespectful mouth young lady and have a seat to Listen!”


    “Yeah! And take that cotton out of your ears and shove it in your smart-azz pie hole…or DIE!”

    Being in AA so reminded me of those “good” ol days in church wherein you would receive harsh admonishment for daring to think or speak outside the soapbox. I noticed that rigid religiosity and duplicity from the very start. It was so friggin clear! And claiming “not to be religious” while reciting scripture and theocentric prayers at the start and close of every meeting only served to make them lose all creditability in my eyes. I have no problem with God or with prayer. It was the blatant lying and the liars that stood out to me. Just say:

    “Welcome Newcomers to the InterChurch of AA… Now let us pray the Our Father and commence!”

    It would be a hellavah lot more rigorously honest.

    I honestly do not know how I or anyone with a brain (and an Internet connection) can suffer these characters for long. I am still amazed that I tried so long to “get with the fruckin Programme!” That is the main reason I do not like good ol alcohol any more. It made me susceptible to that dog-damned AA!

    “I will never forgive you for this John Barleycorn!!!”

    How could I EVER keep going to those meetings, reading that drivel and trying to obey those sponsors of confusion? Damn! Damn! Damn! Damn and…DAMN! That’s the definition of Insanity for me. Seeing some bullsh!t and continuing to try to eat and stuff it down the mouths of others too.

    Did I neglect to say DAMN?!

    I truly LOVE you all who get on here and share the Truth while being utterly undaunted and unphased by the bullies who attempt to chime in with that all ol dogmatic brain-scatter.

    I only wish I had found you before I let them hurt me so.

    Happy New Year!

    • I food the use The Lord’s P:prayer and Reinhold Niebuhr’s “Serenity Prayer” offensive and I’m a practicing, regular churchgoing Roman Catholic. The Lord;s Prayer, albeit theAnglican version, has no place in an AA meetings; neither does mentioning God 50-however times in the Big Book, My next sabbatical will be devoted to networking with some of my fellow professionals and just plain people with stories to tell in an attempt to explain “How AA Co-Opted God”.

  22. AA is a very dangereous shamed based deal. It is religious based by its method of steps/ It is a “work it” that is religion at its finest. AA needs to come out to and stop hiding. Religion /you will not die if you quit AA actually you will live and be free. and wont have to listen to a bunch of fat whiny people. who contunailly give CPR to there past. Boo Hoo/If AA is so great why do they smoke themselves and abuse there bodies? There is NOTHING about AA that is enticing. 3% sucess rate. . it will fade out and it will or it maybe be exposed for what is is religious cult with fanaticals people. They all get jaded when you question them. No its not AA fault its your fault.. ok clam down…. All 12 steps are weak out dated man made nonsense. Dont believe the crap that you will not make it/ if and when you get yourself out negativity then you will be so much better. And its a choice not a disease.

      • It is similiar to talking to a Scientologist. They just will cut you off. Scientologists are VERY VERY anti DRUG. Including ALL Pychiatric meds. Because they may have succeed in brainwashing people and in turn they stopped abusing drugs, does that make that Cult okay? Does the end justify the means? I think that is the elephant in the room question people do not want to address.

        O f course the answer is NO! The end does NOT justify the means. Scientology cult breaks up families, strips people financially, make people sign billion zillion contracts.

        It is the same for AA and NA. The crazy 12 step dogma and courting the courts is not okay just because 5% of members say they have had success in AA.

        They hang people in other countries for doing drugs. That cuts down on drug abuse. Does that mean the US should allow that too?!

  23. Spencer- maybe if the AA Volusia County Intergroup and the Daytona Beach Area Narcotics Anonymous would of actually practiced their traditions, many of us would never have known about the dangers and lack of accountability by both AA and NA. Local groups here still do not follow the principles of their own program, and continue to antagonize local citizens in our parks. They just do not care! What we have found though is our problems in Holly Hill Fl is a microcosm of an international problem with AA/NA Corporate.

    You can thank the local groups that continue to attend meetings, and harass citizens for bringing to light the incredible amount of dysfunction and coverups of AA’s criminal activities. The horse has left the barn, and word is spreading about AA and NA. In the meantime, as these stories have become known globally, and people reading about our local Daytona Beach/Holly Hill horror stories with AA/NA, nothing has changed.

    The arrogance of Daytona AA/NA continues, and their behavior is still scary and unacceptable in our parks in Holly Hill Fl.

  24. This site is not about a grudge Spencer. It is about bringing awareness to the dismal failure rate of Alcoholics Anonymous and Narcotics Anonymous. To warn people that AA/NA is not a safe place for them or their teenagers.

    Considering so many people leave AA once they realize the silly 12 step dogma is absurd, where are they to go Spencer? Jail, Institutions or death? You think AA is the only way? People need choices in recovery, not pigeon holed into a religious cult.

    You also stated as far as mandating goes that this includes SMART Recovery. If only this was common practice! Part of the problem is the judicial system is so in bed with AA and NA, that they do not allow people the option to go to SMART Meetings. A few do, not the majority. Also SMART is inherently safer, because they do not require you or want you to have a sponsor! There is no dependence or expectation of giving your phone number out to every Tom, Dick and Harry.

    Being a GOOD PARENT-is NOT to send your kids to AA in the first place. AA is a revolving door of felons that want to be your sponsor. So even if a parent went and thought a meeting seemed okay, does not mean it will be okay the next day or the next week. The whole idea of telling kids they have an incurable disease and ask them to do “sexual inventories” is pathetic and perverted.

    This site really wants treatment for felons( AA is NOT treatment), and hope they can be reintroduced successfully into society for their benefit as well as society. But there is a time and place for everything. The courts should not be sending violent criminals where they can be anonymous and prey on minors and women. Also there are plenty of good ol’ boy long time sober AA members that are guilty of sexual abuse as well. That is where you get the 13 stepping from. AA had sexual abuse problems even before the courts got into the act. It has only got worse because of AA’s lack of accountabilty.

    Another thing that sets SMART apart from AA and NA is that they do not TOLERATE the crap that AA/NA does! You would be asked to leave a meeting pronto at SMART if their was behavior problems. AA looks the other way, and tells fellow members to mind their own business and keep their side of the street clean! So much for accountability! What a joke!

  25. I am glad that the people who started this website have a place to vent and publish their opinion about how the 12 step program has failed them or their loved ones. That being said, it is devastatingly harmful to link this website to articles where individuals and families are asking what to do about their, or their family members drug addiction. What is happening here is a grudge that went way to far. 12 step programs have been proven (yes proven) to help individuals with drug and alcohol addiction. Addiction is an AMA recognized disease (http://www.ama-assn.org/resources/doc/alcohol/alcoholism_treatable.pdf) meaning it has a planned course of action. This disease is progressive (meaning it gets worse, never better), chronic, and fatal. The fact that uninformed posts are being made on this site, suggesting drug addiction is a lack of moral character, or that an individual who has once been affected by alcoholism will one day be able to drink in moderation is irresponsible. This is the reason why a lot of people aren’t getting the help they need.
    As far as the argument that court mandated “felons” (who are people too i might add) are required to attend 12 step meetings, this is true. But there is a failure to provide all information. The courts mandate that an individual visits a specific number of self-help groups per week. This would include S.M.A.R.T. recovery and any other secular based program. So one is just as likely to run into a “felon” at one of these groups. I believe if a parent is worried about their teen attending a meeting because of this fact, then they should practice some GOOD PARENTING and attend the meetings with their child until they can tell it is safe. Perhaps it will prevent their child from becoming one of these “felons” that this site explicitly alienates.

    • spencer This disease is progressive (meaning it gets worse, never better), chronic, and fatal.

      First off it’s not a disease. Its a behavior. And secondly it gets worse never better is a quote from a book from 1936, written by knuckle head Bill Wilson. Now its a fact that Bill never did any research at all. So to profess that doom an gloom is also deadly. Are you aware how many people drink and go back and drink and go back , AA and NA failing them to be judged , ridiculed, 13 stepped, made fun of, told they need to do a better 4th step, told they need to be of service, told they need to work the steps better. Then they go kill themselves because it has been programmed into them by AA and its stupid literature that they are Broken forever? WHat kind of ridiculous ideology is that ?

      This is complete BS.

      I think the public and AA and NA members need to be warned that AA and NA have become a cult like what ever program that has not changed for 75 years and is a dismal failure.

      That AA and NA are filled with sexual predators and financial scammers and that when these things happen long time members say stupid crap like ” whats your part in it. You are wrong wrong wrong !!!! AA is also known for oldtimers to use powertripping to take advantage of newer members, both sexually and financially!

    • My concern is not with the 12 steps but with the meetings and the opinions, often presented as fact from “old-timers” speaking as authorities, which have no basis in fact. The Big Book is often misinterpreted at meetings. A fallacy that is often spread is that we are mentally defective even when we are not drinking. The “Doctor’s Opinion” is often cited to support this claim. In fact, the “Doctor’s Opinion” makes clear that the opposite is more likely the case. At the end of the letter, Dr. Silkworth writes of seeing Bill W. after a year of sobriety and stating that he had never seen a finer specimen of man. He didn’t say he looked great physically but was still nuts. Also we are told, that upon completion of the 2nd step we will be restored to sanity. The promises, often read at meetings in my vicinity, also make clear that we will be able to trust our intuition. Would one ever consider that one who is insane will ever be able to trust his intuition? This type of nonsense, widely told to newcomers, is what you might expect at your first cult meeting: you’ll never be able to think for yourself, so let the group do your thinking for you.
      As far as court and parole ordered attendance, consider the inevitable increase of sociopaths amongst the membership. While studies show that 2% of the population may well be sociopathic, the percentage goes up to more than 20% within the prison population. Consider how many more went to court and avoided prison en lieu of probation and were ordered to meetings. Once at meetings, I imagine the sociopath must feel as though he has hit paydirt. What better group to control than one who is told not to think, to never say no when asked to help, and which needs a sponsor to make his/her decisions for them. I see mini cults following these sociopathic sponsors with more and more frequency.
      I have chosen in incorporate the underlying principles, which the steps teach, in my life and have never been more at peace. I believe the philosophy for life to be excellent; but please, please don’t stop thinking. If you hear things at meetings that don’t sound right, or if your recaptured intuition tells you that something is wrong, by all means question it. The original 100 who authored the Big Book made it clear that what they were writing was their experience, that they had to admit that of knowledge concerning alcoholism they had little. Much more is known today, so please: think, think, think.

      • Thnks Kevin for your comment. So many good points. One of the points is very interesting. The fact that the prison population have a hifh percentage of sociopaths is around 20%. Also the majority of crimes are comitted by people on probation and are reoffending. So AA DOES have a higher than normal share of sociopaths, pychopaths, sex offenders than in the general population. I get so tired of hearing from steppers that try and say AA is just like going to the grocery store etc. This is preventing any change that is needed in AA to protect their own members. The courts needs to stop mandating period.

        • Also consider that a common, shared characteristic of personality disorders is drug and alcohol abuse, which potentially raises the percentage of sociopaths within the rooms of AA. Again, my concern is not with the program, but with the growing belief that meetings are, in fact, AA. I have concerns with fundraisers held by “clubs”, the handling of dues, and so on. I know if I were attempting to perpetrate a fraud, a couple of things I would try to accomplish are to convince people that their thinking is delusional and to convince them to not question anything. Thanks.

          • Hi Kevin, you do hear of AA having issues with treasurers running off with money. Daytona NA had a problem with that.

            Financial predation in AA is common as well as sexual abuse. There are stories on this site about these as well. Some scams by AA members are in the millions!

            Kevin it sounds like you like the 12 steps and traditons. Based on what I know of what they mean, I do not understand why AA does not stop promoting instead of just using attraction. They are in all of our courts, and meeting with judges etc.

            Why do you think they do nothing about severe problems with certain groups when it is impacting AA as a whole? They really use a total hands off approach, even though the traditions allow for them to change things for the better. I think it is so irresponsible it is criminal to me.

            I wish there was more pressure from within to change, so that people who do go to AA or NA are only those that want to be there.

            • AntiDenial,
              I think it’s great we are having this discussion. Your question regarding why things aren’t done from within to protect AA as a whole is a good one. I believe there are many things to consider. The Big Book says that we are, in fact, supposed to seek out those who need our “help”. It talks about going to hospitals and to not shy away from bars if “we are spiritually fit”. I believe that at some point, some members evolve from going to meetings for help to becoming experts regarding alcoholism and therapy. Everyone with “time” seems to have become a psychologist. My “advice” to anyone trying to save their lives at AA should take the time to research what they hear in meetings. If you take a different view from those espoused in meetings, expect some criticism; remember, many old-timers have invested much of their lives believing what they believe and will not relinquish these beliefs without a fight. I believe if AA is your path to a better life; take personal responsibility for knowing what is, and what is not, AA.
              Thanks for the discussion. Please understand that these are my observations, I am not trying to push anyone in a certain direction.

              • I have found that AA and NA will often deny that they seek out those in mental institutions and jails. I think it is wrong to go help those in jail, plus bring to outside meetings where minors are. AA could stop working with the court system and stop inviting kids from our junior high,high schools and colleges as long as they are inviting felons. AA could do something but they do not.

          • Kevin,

            You said; “Also consider that a common, shared characteristic of personality disorders is drug and alcohol abuse, which potentially raises the percentage of sociopaths within the rooms of AA. Again, my concern is not with the program, but with the growing belief that meetings are, in fact, AA.”

            Aren’t you referring to the fellowship when you say this? Ive always heard that the fellowship is a huge part of the program. What in fact is AA? Is it the Big Book? How do you weed through the difficulties of dealing with the personality disorders and the sociopaths? Attempt to find a path to recovery from addiction; while protecting yourself emotionally and physically? Shouldn’t you be able to trust people where you are seeking help? Id say thats pretty important!! Especially when you are willing to give a program a chance that has been in existence for decades and …unwilling to take any responsibility for harm that has been caused by what they preach and what goes on there.

            • Sue,
              Thank you for this conversation. Please understand, these are my observations and I am not trying to convince anyone of my beliefs. You asked “what is the program”? I believe the program are the 12 steps and the virtues they present as a way of life. I was looking for a way to stop hurting myself and others and to live a life free of anxiety, once alcohol was no longer coursing through my body and brain. The “fellowship” of AA, I believe, has a much different appearance from the “fellowship” of the 30’s. Back then, a handful of members who were looking to get their lives, relationships, and careers back together would get together sporadically and enjoy meals and “fellowship” at other members homes. I don’t see that fellowship today. I think the fact that courts today mandate offenders to AA has been one of the biggest problems within modern day AA. They have, in essence, passed the buck of dealing with criminals to the membership of AA. Largely unsophisticated in matters psychological, AA members, believing the 12 steps can heal whatever ails ya, has embraced these court ordered offenders. Gotta go now. My next post will include characteristics of some of these offenders, which could well explain what’s happening with AA. Looking forward to hearing from you guys again.

              • Kevin,

                Thank you for your response. There was a good reason I ask the question about the fellowship or lack of. Over the past 2 yrs (since leaving AA) when I have debated the effectiveness or my negative opinion of the 12 steps with members who attend meetings regularly; their response is usually,I go to AA for the fellowship. So I was very curious about your opinion. Would like to comment more but off to work. Also, not sure if I care to start a discussion about the complexity of the 12 steps. Thanks again.

                • We can talk about whatever. Fellowship is great but I’ve seen gossip, rumor spreading, and character assassination being disguised as fellowship. As for the steps (good or bad), I’ve always seen them as a practical way to allow me to sleep good at night. The originals didn’t make them up. This philosophy is a combination of philosophies going back to the ancient Greeks. Anyway, I just want the best for all of us. Talk soon.

  26. Typical AA mantra. Sit down and shut up! Actually age very much matters! Most teenagers do not fit the criteria for having a substance abuse disorder. Many are experimenting and got caught, and the court or parent are mandating that they go. Just because you got caught drinking or smoking pot, does not mean you are an addict for life. It is a very negative message to send to teens.

    Alcoholism is a physical addiction. Once you quit or drink in moderation you are no longer addicted! Get it? The majority of teens have experimented along with plenty of college students. Does that make them an addict for the rest of their entire lives? NO! Now there are some people who have poor impulse control. They might not be able to put that bag of potato chips down or that half gallon of ice cream back in the fridge. Some people are better off not drinking when they have very poor self control issues. Yet this does not equate to a disease or an addiction.

    Maybe some people feel AA/NA worked for them. But ask yourself, at what cost? Could their have been more healthier ways to quit or learn to moderate? The end does not justify the means. Other countries murder people for doing drugs in front of citizens, to scare them. Does it work? I think it does cut down on substance abuse in those countries! Does that mean it is the correct thing to do? NO! Of course not.

    • Isn’t it great to be FREE FROM IT? Ohhhhh, it was like TORTURE: being encouraged to be mindless & unquestioning.

    • As a NA member who has had training in drug and alcohol counseling, I must correct you. Alcoholism/drug addiction is NOT a physical addiction…it is a mental disorder that affects the chemistry of the brain, sometimes for years after the last drink or drug. Yes, some people can stop with no further effect, but many can’t. When the dopamine and serotonin transmitters in the brain have been permanently damaged / depleted…there is much more to it than just putting down the drink or drug. Most people drink or use to either enhance a feeling or take one away. If there was not some kind of mental or emotional issue going on, answer me why then, would some one pick up and then continue to use alcohol or drugs? Happy people don’t become addicted…sick people become addicted..

      • Is your training from Narcotics Anonymous? Of course alcohol and certain other drugs are PHYSICALLY addicting. This is a fact. Once people are no longer addicted to the drugs or alcohol, some choose to moderate or quit altogether. Not everyone who becomes addicted has mental problems. So many college students drink because they enjoy it, then become addicted.

        • Thank you. This fallacy of a “chemical” imbalance is a theoretical construct to explain the behavior of those who chronically relapse, but there is NO scientifically base evidence to show that just because someone has had a physical chemical dependency also has mental illness.

          • Sober without AA- you are welcomed! Only sick people get addicted? Please…… Many happy people party to hard and it gets the best of them, and before they know it they are physically addicted. There are so many people who had it all in life- then became hooked on meth, and they get so addicted, they lose their spouse, their house their job etc. But they had it all. Yet they made the mistake of even trying meth.

            One can argue about changes to the brain after addiction, but AA does not repair any damage. They are a dangerous cult.

      • thats not true. addiction is not a disease. And the brain regenerates new cells. I think you need to talk to a neurosurgeon …I have….

        The lies NA and AA have spread without ANY RESEARCH what so ever baffles me.

        Sick people become addicted. Thats sounds like kool aid drinking foolishness from 1935….” a spiritual malady” Hogwash. Anyone they take enough addicting drugs can get addicted and they are NOT Broken inside.

        I once believed these lies but since leaving AA I have read many books and listened to trained professionals, not blind leading the blind steppers.

      • people could use drugs or booze because they have regular old life problems, not mental problems. I strongly object to all this mental illness crap. People have problems finding work, dealing with their families, dealing with their employers, dealing with environmental devastation, etc, etc, etc. Grow up and stop the narcissism.

  27. This is such a load of bullshit. AA has saved my life, and anyone who cannot handle the truth and shut up and humble themselves obviously doesn’t deserve the program. I came into AA when I was 18, I am an alcoholic no doubt. Age does not matter- it is our usage that matters.

      Why the hell do you come here? This is NOT a place to work your 12th step! YOU may not be ready to face the ugly truth – but many others of us – VAST NUMBERS – we know exactly why we left those damaging and oppressing rooms.

      Please do not come here and get upset to see what this place is ACTUALLY FOR. You want to sing the praises of The Fellowship? GO TO A MEETING. You want to break free from FEAR & CONTROL – like I did? Then this is one of the places to be. AND THERE ARE MANY, MANY MORE OF SITES LIKE THIS. Why?? BECAUSE THEY ARE REQUIRED.

      So please, coming here quoting program verbatim is not welcomed. We already KNOW EXACTLY what each & every one of you is going to say: WE WERE INDOCTRINATED TOO. We’ve heard it all before. We too were mindless parrots, once upon a time.

      I appreciate these sites. If I WANTED to hear the bullshit, I would go to a meeting. Honestly, I would prefer to face DEATH than that. Because that is why we left: that life HAD become like a death for us.

      • You are the one spreading fear and control. AA works for millions and has done so for decades. It is not the only game in town and doesn’t claim to be. The incidents mentioned may well have happened, but based on my experiences are the exception, not the rule. The main reason any recovery program fails is because the person chooses not to remain sober. Getting one’s feelings hurt at an AA meeting or drug counseling is a perfect excuse for a person who has no intention of getting sober to go back out. You can lead a horse to water…

        • Joe,

          Unfortunately, it’s been my experience that these experiences are the norm. Your “statistics” that millions stay sober through AA is unsupported by any medical evidence. In fact, the largest study conducted on AA success (completed in 2009) concluded that there was more evidence to support spontaneous cessation of alcoholic drinking along with couseling as more effective than attendance at AA meetings. It also reported a higher incidence of binge drinking in those who relapse who had also attended AA.

          But I’m sure we’ll hear the same tired excuses containing the words “dry drunk” somewhere in it. AA grew from an evangelical, proselytizing cult movement in the 1930s – 1940s. It’s a religion, the US Supreme Court says so. Deal with it (say an “anger” prayer) and move on.

    • In my experience with NA AA that they are a cult and that if they do not like you for some reason of another, the group conscience will slander people.
      I have seen these people say all kinds of things about people there.

      • Hi Anon! I have noticed that too. They have called a number of citizens drunks and spread lies. In Holly Hill they said those of us that were complaining about their presence, they spread a rumour that we were planting drugs in their cars! Then they filed false police reports as well stalking their children. The lies were endless. This took me by surprise.

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